The Great Chinese Hop Buy 2009

[altstart]

There is no way we are going to be splitting these hops this weekend and that suits me well. The rest of this year I have no problem with, this weekend and I would have had a real problem attending.
Cheers Altstart

 

[MarkBastard]

You think the retailers are adding $80/kg onto the wholesale price? lol

If the retailers are selling Chinese hops, they wouldn't be $100/kg. The retailers are selling hops from more expensive (and higher quality? we'll soon see if/when these hops arrive...) source, without knowing the wholesale prices and without having access to the retailers books, I would say that due to retail competition the current prices are pretty good.

I think the point is that it's not the retailers screwing us over though (or at least not them alone) but middle men.

If we can buy hops from America for example, delivered to our door, from American retailers, at significantly less price than it'd cost to buy here, SOMETHING is wrong somewhere. :icon_offtopic:

 

[dpadden]

There is no way we are going to be splitting these hops this weekend and that suits me well. The rest of this year I have no problem with, this weekend and I would have had a real problem attending.
Cheers Altstart

What about early next year :lol:

 

[Leigh]

I think the point is that it's not the retailers screwing us over though (or at least not them alone) but middle men.

If we can buy hops from America for example, delivered to our door, from American retailers, at significantly less price than it'd cost to buy here, SOMETHING is wrong somewhere. :icon_offtopic:

I just recently bought a pound of some german noble hops, grown in germany, shipped to USA, bought by me, shipped to Australia, all for around half the price I can buy them for here, with all residue analysis done...no excuses for the ludicrous prices we pay IMO h34r:

 

[QldKev]

You think the retailers are adding $80/kg onto the wholesale price? lol

If the retailers are selling Chinese hops, they wouldn't be $100/kg. The retailers are selling hops from more expensive (and higher quality? we'll soon see if/when these hops arrive...) source, without knowing the wholesale prices and without having access to the retailers books, I would say that due to retail competition the current prices are pretty good.

Have a look at the US this year, how many tonnes were dumped. If the sellers in the US (not talking the retail outlets) would sell at a better price then people would get used to higher hoped beers, and we all would be happy. Hopefully if we do start importing hops at a decent level from China (and other countries) places like the US and Germany would need to respond with campariable pricing models.

QldKev

 

[MarkBastard]

I just recently bought a pound of some german noble hops, grown in germany, shipped to USA, bought by me, shipped to Australia, all for around half the price I can buy them for here, with all residue analysis done...no excuses for the ludicrous prices we pay IMO h34r:

For half the price indeed! That's almost cheap enough for you to set up a retail operation, even if it's just selling on Ebay. You could affectively use USA retailers as wholesalers. That's how ludicrous things are. It just doesn't make sense.

Then of course you can try to cut out the US retailer and go straight to a wholesaler, or go straight to the germen wholesaler even.

Fair enough the local home brew store is just that, and it's hardly the type of business that wants to try its like on the world stage importing and all the rest, but it just goes to show whoever is doing that sort of step (presumably the wholesaler) is running quite the racket...

 

[Bribie G]

This thread keeps reverting to banter - however as I've only got a couple of ppl to chase up for bags then I suppose banter it is, but as the day approacheth any important updates or announcements will be Headed in bold red so nobody should miss them.



It's not just Aussies who are being taken to the cleaners with hop prices. I'm on a couple of UK forums and they buy heaps of hops and dried yeast from CraftBrewer (Ross) and I believe he sells Cascade to home brewers in Oregon, so you can imagine what the retailers are screwing their locals with over there in the land of the free if they can get better prices off Ross. The hops must end up pretty confused though, picked and processed in Oregon then sent to the other side of the planet, then sent back again to Oregon :mellow:

Edit: Ross beat me to it

 

[Ross]

A few facts that may enlighten.... B)

The Australian hop distributors enter into purchase contracts a good 12 months ahead of the crops being available to ensure they have stock for the various breweries & retailers they supply - Can you imagine the disaster if there was suddenly no supply for the breweries. Last year Australian prices were the best in the world with micros worldwide purchasing direct retail from stores like ours. It would have been simple for the Australian wholesalers to lift prices inline with the rest of the world & enjoy the increased margins, but they didn't, therefore ourselves plus many others passed on the benefits to everyone.
For this year unfortunately, prices were fixed at a time of world shortage & sky high prices. This was further compounded by a very low Aussie dollar at the time of payment/shipment. Today we see a return to good stock levels with an Aussie dollar back to near all time highs. This makes spot purchases of hops from overseas very attractive at present, but you wont see the follow through in retail pricing here until the new season crops come through at the new price levels. We personally could dump our long time suppliers & purchase direct at the current cheap prices, but that's not how we do business - Our suppliers have supported us through difficult times & likewise we will support them. The day they start trying to screw us over is the day we look elsewhere, but to date their service/pricing has been excellent. I don't blame people buying direct, we are all looking for bargins (currently in several bulk buys myself). But just be aware that you can't expect retaillers to support you with the variety of choice you currently enjoy (probably the best in the world) if you dump them every time you get to save a few cents on a brew.

Cheers Ross

 

[MarkBastard]

Cheers Ross, that all makes sense.

So I guess there's two factors:

1 - Hops are bought in larger quantities based on harvesting times and stored. Price is set based on the price at purchase time regardless of what the industry is doing months later, for better or worse.
2 - Home brewers are quite far down the pecking order as far as hop supplying goes, so breweries may get the pick of the litter and we're left to pay top dollar for what is left over.

Makes sense.

I suppose because hops are an annual crop, usually sourced from one location (for each hop type), and the supply / demand can fluctuate rapidly at our level, prices fluctuate as well.

But in a good year how cheap will hops go in Australia? For example with the dollar at parity and seemingly US produces making more hops than they can even bothered be picking, shouldn't we be able to pickup USA hops in X months time at really good prices?

 

[Ross]

Cheers Ross, that all makes sense.

So I guess there's two factors:

1 - Hops are bought in larger quantities based on harvesting times and stored. Price is set based on the price at purchase time regardless of what the industry is doing months later, for better or worse. Yes
2 - Home brewers are quite far down the pecking order as far as hop supplying goes, so breweries may get the pick of the litter and we're left to pay top dollar for what is left over. No, we get the identical hops through wholesalers here. Though some Breweries that deal direct with farms often travel & select their hops.

Makes sense.

I suppose because hops are an annual crop, usually sourced from one location (for each hop type), and the supply / demand can fluctuate rapidly at our level, prices fluctuate as well. Yes

But in a good year how cheap will hops go in Australia? For example with the dollar at parity and seemingly US produces making more hops than they can even bothered be picking, shouldn't we be able to pickup USA hops in X months time at really good prices? Again, yes - But remember, the hop industry was close to collapse a couple of years back with farmers switching to more productive crops. If countries like China start producing huge quantities at low prices you better pray the quallity is good, as you'll probably see the end of a lot of traditional hop growers.

cheers Ross

 

[townsville]

I know I started this, and only wanted to explain why I was doing this

Boy I could comment of heaps but wont

EXCEPT

>>>>>But remember, the hop industry was close to collapse a couple of years back with farmers switching to more productive crops. If countries like China start producing huge quantities at low prices you better pray the quallity is good, as you'll probably see the end of a lot of traditional hop growers.<<<<<

When will people get it thru their Thick Richard Crainiums that we live in a global economy. Local industries in Australia have been dying since the 1950's due to the increasing Global trading. For better or worse, this is the change we have to have to live and trade globally. So yes there are industries that have left our shores, and more following every year.

Our hop industry is one domed the same way unless it competes with the world. POR hops in the 70's (or whatever friggen year it was 50's comes to mind) was a master stroke, highest alpha hop in the world. BUT nothing til the hop industry in this country was near collapse. Now they rely on a varity called Galaxy to pull them out of the hole. It wont work persay. If an industry cant compete, it will go the way of many MANY others. If China, India, Argentina, country xxxxxx (latest source), can produce good hops at a cheaper price, well so be it.


I'll leave it at that, other than to say the pricing of hops in this country seems criminal.

But that another story

Craftbrewer

 

[Steve]

Ive said it before but i'd love to hear mrs eyers point of view on this thread from an australian hop growing company. Yes Ive seen you lurking mrs eyers :lol:
Cheers
Steve

 

[Bribie G]

I've added Galaxy to the Wikipedia hop list today :lol:
While reading up on hops it's interesting that even within the USA, former hop producing areas have failed as technology improved. For example the Sonoma Valley in California was their biggest hop area in the days when they needed heaps of seasonal labour, but when picking became mechanised the industry pulled up its roots (or rhizomes) and headed for Cascadia. On the UK brew forums they inform me that many Kent hop yards have been ploughed up and now growing EU subsidised canola. So it's not just us.

 

[MarkBastard]

The thing is though I'm not interesting in buying any Australia hop varieties, and most people seem to be in the same boat, so this isn't about the Australian producing industry or anything like that.

 

[Bribie G]

All my quaffing Aus beers contain Australian Hops, either POR SP or Cluster. The only reason I ordered the Chinese hops was so I could do a XXX (note the number of exes) with Cluster, and also do premium style Aus beers with Cluster plus Saaz for finishing. Not interested in Cascadian type hops. If you sent me a couple of kilos of Marco Polos for free I wouldn't use them. However that's personal preference. Mark I think you'd be surprised how many people use POR etc, Ross might have details on how much POR flower he has sold from the new crop. However townsville makes a good point in that, as usual, the Aus industry has missed the boat and hoping that Galaxy and Topaz will get them out of the shyte, like the Mitsubishi 380

 

[townsville]

However townsville makes a good point in that, as usual, the Aus industry has missed the boat and hoping that Galaxy and Topaz will get them out of the shyte, like the Mitsubishi 380

Or we all remember how the Leyland P76 was going to save British Leyland Car Manufacturing Plant In Australia.

Craftbrewer

 

[Darren]

OT: I hear that there is an over-supply of malting quality barley this year too and the prices to the farmer have plummeted.

Wonder if those prices will be passed onto Aussiehomebrewers?

I doubt it.

cheers

Darren

 

[Peteoz77]

I still buy some hops in AUS, and Yes Ross, I understand why there are still so high priced here. I bought 5KG of Cascade and paid $75 per Kilo. a few months ago, and when I bough 4.5 kilos in USA I paid $22 per Kilo... plus a LOT in freight (they totalled about $44 per Kilo, so still half price). Still, it would be nice is AUS distributors would source the cheaper hops and pass on some savings instead of still charging $75 a Kilo.... Seriously, I can buy cascade hops in USA right now for $8.75 per pound....

 

[beachy]

I know I started this, and only wanted to explain why I was doing this

Boy I could comment of heaps but wont

EXCEPT

>>>>>But remember, the hop industry was close to collapse a couple of years back with farmers switching to more productive crops. If countries like China start producing huge quantities at low prices you better pray the quallity is good, as you'll probably see the end of a lot of traditional hop growers.<<<<<

When will people get it thru their Thick Richard Crainiums that we live in a global economy. Local industries in Australia have been dying since the 1950's due to the increasing Global trading. For better or worse, this is the change we have to have to live and trade globally. So yes there are industries that have left our shores, and more following every year.

Our hop industry is one domed the same way unless it competes with the world. POR hops in the 70's (or whatever friggen year it was 50's comes to mind) was a master stroke, highest alpha hop in the world. BUT nothing til the hop industry in this country was near collapse. Now they rely on a varity called Galaxy to pull them out of the hole. It wont work persay. If an industry cant compete, it will go the way of many MANY others. If China, India, Argentina, country xxxxxx (latest source), can produce good hops at a cheaper price, well so be it.


I'll leave it at that, other than to say the pricing of hops in this country seems criminal.

But that another story

Craftbrewer

hey townsville i saw wine from chile the other day for $5 a bottle so it looks like the barossa valley, hunter valley,margaret river,coonawarra etc etc are all doomed because it must be good if its cheap, you better let them know they are finnished!!

hops are not cars they dont come off a production line they grow out in the weather where they are a direct product of thier terrior
the end product(AA,oil content etc) is directly affected by temperature,humidity,dialy sunshine hours,length of growing season,soil type and the fact that you call yourself 'craftbrewer' and have a radio show about brewing but dont know these things and just continue to say any hops that are cheap are good is very scary :lol:

 

[townsville]

the fact that you call yourself 'craftbrewer' and have a radio show about brewing but dont know these things and just continue to say any hops that are cheap are good is very scary :lol:

While I could enlighten you all about growing hops, I prefer instead for you to think I know nothing and am just plain dumb.

Who said "ignorance is Bliss"


Shout
Craftbrewer