How do you secondary?

[Rocker1986]

Even then it's not reliable, gas pressures could be changing inside with temperature changes or anything, causing the thing to bubble when there's not really anything happening. Throwing in dry hops provides nucleation points for some of the CO2 to form bubbles on and rise up out of the beer, that could cause it to bubble as well. I guess I'm lucky that my lid is see-through so it doesn't really matter whether there's an airlock working or even in place, I can see through it what's happening. B)

 

[mtb]

I do like the glad-wrap idea for that reason (visibility).. something about krausen gives me the jollies

 

[warra48]

The way I see it is, if it's not bubbling, all bets are off (so I agree with you on that - too many other factors that can cause this). However, if they are bubbling, they're the quickest way available to check whether fermentation is still active, and roughly how active

Maybe in most cases, but it's not the only reason you might see action in an airlock. Temperature changes and CO² coming out of solution is another.
The reality is that an airlock is a notoriously unreliable indicator of fermentation action.

For me, I use 3 layers of clingwrap. I don't need an airlock. I know always that after 2 to 3 weeks primary my fermentation is done. Hasn't failed me yet in almost 10 years of brewing.

 

[mtb]

For me, I use 3 layers of clingwrap. I don't need an airlock. I know always that after 2 to 3 weeks primary my fermentation is done. Hasn't failed me yet in almost 10 years of brewing.

I don't doubt this would work - but what if it finished in half that time, and you weren't aware?

 

[Killer Brew]

I don't doubt this would work - but what if it finished in half that time, and you weren't aware?

hydrometer checks.

 

[Killer Brew]

Maybe in most cases, but it's not the only reason you might see action in an airlock. Temperature changes and CO² coming out of solution is another.
The reality is that an airlock is a notoriously unreliable indicator of fermentation action.

For me, I use 3 layers of clingwrap. I don't need an airlock. I know always that after 2 to 3 weeks primary my fermentation is done. Hasn't failed me yet in almost 10 years of brewing.

Interested in why you use 3 layers? i only use the 1

 

[danestead]

I don't doubt this would work - but what if it finished in half that time, and you weren't aware?

Then he would end up with epic beer in his glass.

 

[mtb]

Then he would end up with epic beer in his glass.

Can't argue with that!

 

[mofox1]

I transferred to "another" fermenter last night... not really a secondary fermentation though, just the same one going on in two different vessels! :lol:

Not normal practice, but I was adding a *lot* of dry hops (something north of 10g/L) and wanted to harvest the yeast w/o a metric shitload of hop material on top, and free up the volume occupied by the yeast cake for the hops. I'll still need to tip the fermenter to keep the tap clear, though (crap - forgot to do that last night!).

Obviously receiving vessel was purged with CO2 beforehand (and after, just in case).

I'm not really sure how/why transferring to a secondary vessel would affect clarity/taste... it's not like you give the fermenter a good shake before bottling/kegging (and if you do, I've got a great tip on how to get clearer/better tasting beer!).

 

[Jrrj]

I am starting to use cornies as bright tanks, after two weeks in a better bottle. Not really secondary fermentation but probably serves the same purpose as what you do. I do this for ales in the 1040 to 1060 range, seems to be working well so far on a citra/simcoe amber ale and a galaxy pale ale. The basic procedure is:

- 2 weeks fermentation in a better bottle at about 19 degrees, then drain into a corny purged and full of C02 initially
- 2 weeks in that corny at about 19 degrees, pull the PRV occasionally but fermentation is done so basically nothing builds up
- 1 week cold conditioning, at around 1 degree, so the beer drops bright, then oxygen-free transfer to the serving keg and leave it for a week on the gas at serving pressure.

This relatively slow process works for me because I have no shortage of cornies or ready-to-drink beer.

I'd be interested in anyone's thoughts on whether this might not be advisable for any reason, or if quality could be improved in some way (I don't have any need to speed it up unless the time in various vessels harms the beer).

 

[Adr_0]

I should have clarified. Secondary fermentation happens - whether you like it or not - after vigorous primary/krausen (which should be 3-10 days), where attenuation slows on the way to FG and some of the intermediates/byproducts start to get cleaned up. You can do it in your primary FV or a separate FV. If you disagree that's OK, but it's how the question was framed.

Another point is that I think most of this is probably a lot less relevant for keggers. Give it 2-3 or maybe 4 weeks in your primary FV, drop temp for a few days, keg and the beer further conditions in bulk. The question of flavour development (temperature of 5-10°C and darker beers) is still worth thinking about though.

So secondary - again, no matter where you do it - should achieve three main things: allow the beer to hit FG; clarify the beer; and develop flavour while (if done properly) preventing negative flavours coming in. Noonan's lager book has a whole chapter on it, BLAM lists it for nearly every beer, Warner's book on wheats insists on skimming hops/protein from the krausen and moving to a second FV to sit at 4-8°C, while Brewing With Wheat barely mentions it.

Pretty well every beer in BLAM has got a secondary from 2 to 8 weeks, over a temperature range of lager temps up to 10°C (4-6 weeks for the Westy 8 and 6-8 weeks for the St Bernardus 12), and 0°C for six weeks for a few trippels. There are also a few that do 3 days at 0°C (Chimay), and some that do 2-4 weeks at ambient temp and a couple of days at 0°C. To my mind (and my experience) most things sub 10°C will clear in a few days or a week with poor flocculators, so a lot of this time seems to be for flavour development.

How many of you out there have had an ESB or porter after 6mths vs 4-6 weeks? Taste any different? I guess my approach is leaning towards "could this time to develop some of the caramels, fruits, esters be sped up if I age in bulk rather than in each bottle?". Acetaldehyde needs to convert to alcohol, higher alcohols can convert to esters, sulphur compounds get broken down and I'm sure a lot of other things happen. I think finings are an interesting one as there is likely a bit of a flavour improvement too, and it probably reduces aging. I've never got around to trying it though as I always think it's less hassle to transfer... if it saves time though....

I can imagine a weak boil and carrying over hops to the primary FV then letting it sit there for 4-5 weeks can't be that good for a beer - particularly a wheat or lager, though even PA's might have a harsher bitterness. So boiling and wort handling have got to play into it too.

Autolysis is really dependent on yeast metabolism, which is dependent on strain and temperature. Having a beer in the 20's that has basically hit FG with a vigorous yeast (most Belgians are, a couple of wheats are and most ales are) and sitting for 4-8 weeks is probably risky. And I guess hop resins, particles, certain proteins siting in contact with the beer can feasible introduce 'off' flavours, so in a highly controlled commercial brewery you can see why they do it, and often blend old beer with new. And you can start to see why Warner seems to be so paranoid, but to be honest I didn't really like that book.

My experience a few years back, I would do it religiously and did have bright, clean beers and my English bitters had a fantastic malt/ester profile. I haven't done as many these days and I haven't used a separate FV for about the last 10-12 beers, and each one has seemed to need a lot more aging and has ended up with a lot more crap in the bottles. I know finings is a really good option, but I'm really considering going back to speed up the aging - and I'm confident about avoiding infection and oxidation with my methods. I have a dubbel now that's in a separate FV with 3944, so seems like it ticks all the boxes for benefiting from a separate FV for secondary, so we'll see how that goes.

 

[warra48]

Interested in why you use 3 layers? i only use the 1

I didn't enjoy cleaning up my brew fridge from a brew which escaped the fermenter. Dunkelweizens tend to go nuts if not enough head space.
3 layers crossed over keeps an overactive brew in check.

 

[JDW81]

I think Bribies a glad wrapper, its a cult thing, you have to be invited and there's a handshake.

No handshake required, you just need to have stuffed more than 10 kittens into an airlock before you can join. If you can make the kitten bubble, we'll let you in with just 5....

 

[Adr_0]

I didn't enjoy cleaning up my brew fridge from a brew which escaped the fermenter. Dunkelweizens tend to go nuts if not enough head space.
3 layers crossed over keeps an overactive brew in check.

I use three airlocks to let me know when I've hit FG and ready to bottle...

 

[Bribie G]

My comment about airlocks was based on the "hangover" of the method from home wine making to the early "modern" home brewers. Of course it was the preferred way to go.

In the wine making situation, the airlock is foolproof and 100% effective:



However with home brewing we rarely, in this country anyway, use glass carboys. We mostly employ the FV that came with the original Kit, or buckets with snap-on lids, or Bunnings water drums or plastic drums from the LHBS with screw on lids and sometimes dodgy rubber O-rings.

The seal on these is problematic to say the least, especially the buckets. The drum-shaped vessels are "blown" in the factory and although the bottom and body are usually pretty smooth and even, nearly all of them suffer from the pretty rough results around the top lip of the container. Even if you take a Stanley knife and pare off the lugs and raised sharp bits etc, a good seal is nearly always hit or miss.

Putting an airlock on a plastic FV is like putting lipstick on a pig. Looks impressive and makes you feel professional ... ooh look, that's what we call an "airlock". Later on I'll be "racking", wow I love this new hobby, I'm learning some new words...

Anyway this isn't a clingwrap vs airlock thread so I'll shut up for now.

 

[yankinoz]

To those who bottle and whom it concerns:

For lagers I'm experimenting with a fairly long primary fermentation and diacetyl rest in primary, priming and bottling right out of primary, chilling to lagering temperature either (a) immediately after bottling or (b) after 1-2 days at fermentation temperatures to start carbonation and assure a good yeast cell count. After lagering for the full period I warm for 2 weeks to produce carbonation and then chill again until it's served.

I started a thread on this a while back. Results on a very limited sample are encouraging. I expect to make a full report once I've done it on several batches. That will be a while, since I brew few lagers and lager a long time when I do.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I ferment in a 50lt Kegmenter under pressure then transfer with co2 pressure to the secondary 18lt serving kegs. Already self carbonated. No exposures at all. Chill and serve.
Its so clean! :chug:

 

[Adr_0]

I ferment in a 50lt Kegmenter under pressure then transfer with co2 pressure to the secondary 18lt serving kegs. Already self carbonated. No exposures at all. Chill and serve.
Its so clean! :chug:

How long for secondary and at what temperature?

 

[contrarian]

I've only ever used a second vessel when using fruit or something similar for example transferring a stout onto cherries.

I have also considered doing it when dry hopping. Partially so the yeast can still be reused and partially because there seems to be some evidence that yeast can soak up some of any additional flavour you are trying to add post primary fermentation including hops, oak etc.

I also have a couple of Brett beers that have been transferred to secondary as they will be sitting around for a few months before bottling.

 

[klangers]

Let's not diverge into discussions about airlocks :icon_offtopic:

Secondary fermentation is being confused with cold conditioning. in some (not all) of these posts

In all the large breweries I've ever worked at, there are only 3 types of vessels - fermenters, maturation vessels/conditioning vessels, and bright beer tanks.

However, for more complex beers such as certain Belgians, secondary fermentation is actually where additional fermentables are added and additional fermentation takes place. For instance, some Belgian dubbels go through primary, a long maturation period, and then new fresh wort is added and transferred to secondary for an additional fermentation. This can add significant flavour complexity if this is what one is looking for.

But to answer the question - for ales, stouts and anything non-lager I just bottle or keg after cold crashing. Lagers I'll either filter bright (to save time) or rack to a clean fermenter to, well, lager.