VIC-Xmas 2016 Case-Swap Recipe (Cocko's place)

[droid]

is the system running 1/2" plumbing?

 

[Mardoo]

Yep

 

[idzy]

The larger march pump has 1" input and 1/2" output. Claims 17 vs 6, so approximately 2.5 times the flow with mostly the same plumbing, just need to change the MLT fittings

 

[TheWiggman]

Forgive my apparent pedantic-ness Mardoo as there is no cruel intent, but flow only becomes an issue when the system can't draw the power away from the heat exchanger. There would certainly be a difference between different tube sizes with a centrifugal pump for a system this size and I'm not disputing that. But all you need is enough flow, not lots of flow.
If the element is running 100% of the time and it's heating the liquor, then that energy is going into the liquor and thus back into the esky. Flow is only an issue if -

• There's a big temp differential across the HEx (i.e. you've hit mash temp at the outlet but the temp in the esky is a lot lower).
• Water in the HEx vessel continues to heat until it boils (i.e. not enough flow to get the heat out)

If you go past my keyboard battles on this forum in the past I've always advocated high flow - this holds true, but in this application won't make a difference unless you come across the above problems. Energy in = energy out - losses.

Also part of the problem with my controller is that it is a PID that is tuned for a far smaller system. This slowed the ramp time SHITLOADS. I didn't realise until part way through the sacc rest and then cranked it about 8°C above setpoint. Apologies, I was pretty shitty about that. I'm planning on an upgrade soon...

 

[Mardoo]

It's both actually. I may have confused the issue by saying "flow". I'm not referring to the HEX's. The ability to transfer liquid at a reasonable rate is one of the major issues. Check out Spike Brewing's literature on the difference in flow rate between 1/2" and 5/8" tube. (Sorry, that's the only solid reference I can think of off the top of my head.)

 

[micbrew]

Great question Martin !

from the food perspective

were elso can you get
fed food all weekend , sample a range of beers approx 15 on tap , talk shite , tag unsuspective sleepers h34r: , collect a cube , have a great time
and all for about $60 ...undervalued in my opinion

I reckon if you attend and or swap , you have to chip in for the food
this will help persuade people to attend and not have so many pull out , at the last minute
leaving finances a little worse for wear. apologies in advance for anyone with legitimate reasons! on not attending ..sometimes life happens , I get it .

also I think all funds need to paid well in advance so we can pay , suppliers , arrange all food , grains additives and sundries
one price , one payment ...done & dusted

was even thinking we could hold a raffle to fund some equipment for these big brews ,moving forward

to cater for this number , we need about 15 kg for lunch & dinner
this does not include friday night

because Friday night is becoming the norm , more thought needs to go into feeding the masses on the night

we have purchased a plastic tub , so we can build up food utensils & miscellaneous stuff
so we don't need to keep buying every swap

other stuff we must have

russells spit
tables
marque
dedicated gas bottle for bbq ...breakfast
power for spit
bottled water was a hit
tomato sauce
foil
foil trays for meat
fly spray
charcoal / heat beads
knife /fork / plates , serviettes
paper towel ,
dunny paper
coffee , tea , sugar
salad , bread rolls


just my 2 cents , hope this helps for future case swaps yada yada :beerbang:



cheers mick

 

[droid]

shit I didn't even think about that ^ I'm happy to slide some $ for the food as I would have been catered for - sorry did not even think about it

 

[droid]

Idzy or brewers of the case swap rig - could we get a simple drawing or two put up (maybe in a dedicated Vic case-swap brew-house upgrade thread) of the current set-up and even the different configs that you've run with?

I'm sure if all eyes can see how it runs that ideas will be thrown out there and the best foot put forward - personally I love trying to work out this sort of stuff

if the plumbing is larger there is a greater surface area of wort that can be heated - I wonder about the difference between a 100ltr HEX that's gas fired with 1/2" vs 5/8" coil inside and have also considered an instantaneous hot water system in my own set-up which isn't outrageou$

point is that I and I'm sure many others would like to throw ideas into the mix which can be considered/discarded/altered...whatever - it all helps eh

 

[micbrew]

Hey Droid .. All good
We came in on budget ...

And moving forward I'm sure we could help fund some equipment for future brews

But throws open other issues as well .. Storage / ownership / etc etc

Mick

 

[malt junkie]

Pump issues will be a continual pain in the bum until people wake up and start using pumps made for 50 hz.

 

[GrumpyPaul]

If swap brews get any bigger form a co-op and become gypsy brewers

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

Can we scrounge together a series of old dishwasher pumps?

 

[TheWiggman]

For a non-gas system that can be adapted to any home I reckon something like the following could be made up -



If we had a larger pump and hoses this would be handy. Idea is -

• Each SSR is connected to a different 240V socket
• Install multiple corded kettle elements in the HEx
• PID controls temp to both eskies so brew remains consistent

I've pictured the flow split between both eskies and it's possible one vessel may get more flow than the other; true, but with a common outlet/suction the pressure should balance between the two.

SSRs are cheap ($3.20 off eBay delivered), kettle elements are as well and a pot could be made up with some scrapped fittings I can scavenge off work. Some main panel sockets like this are tidy but the costs would soon add up. Small $3 extension leads and some cable glands are a cheap alternative.
Controller-wise I'm happy to put something together as I'm keen on playing around with some Arduino stuff for my own system. It can be had dirt-cheap and is completely customisable.

 

[technobabble66]

Without trying to address all points made in the heating-mash conundrum, my 2c would be that it's *both* the flow rate of the pumps plus the rate/quantity of heating by the HEX/elements that needs addressing.
Both seem to be equally important - technically the overall HEX/element capacity may be more of an obvious constraint, but the flow rate of the pumps/hoses also need to ideally be sufficient to disperse the heat energy more rapidly through those massive MLT eskys. The dribble we were getting from them wasn't helping the slow ramping, that's for sure! One way you could look at it is the additional influence of the heat losses from the top of the eskys - the slower the rate, the more heat is lost out the top before it flows into the grain bed. Failing that, it just takes a freakin long time for the entire grain bed to reach equilibrium.
So basically, it'd be worthwhile improving both the heat exchange system plus the pumping flow rate.

Just out of interest, is it worth considering a dual-flow heat exchange system. What i mean is, could we get a (series of) plate chiller(s) and run the mash through one way, then have a large volume of heated water running the other way?
The reason for suggesting that is it means we can run gas systems to ramp the mash. The convenient electricity option which most of us use on our own systems seems like a major choke-point in the future as not many will have sufficient amperage to run the several large elements Wiggas et al are calculating we need. Whereas we can just keep setting up more pots with water and split feeds to supply as many kJ's as needed.
I'm assuming this system would do something like run the heating water a few degrees above the targeted temp, then we just pump both the wort & the heating fluid through as fast as possible.
Apologies if this is already covered and discarded - just spit-balling during a break at work!
----------------


Hey, FWIW, i thought the decoctions worked fine. The first 1 wasn't heated up to boiling and so did little (and neither were rested at sacch temps :unsure: ), but the 2nd one got us up to ~62°C in one step, up from ~56°C. In hindsight, we could've planned to do a couple of decoctions to achieve the rapid ramping we were seeking. The relatively small volumes of 50-70L is reasonably doable.
So for next time, a 50L decoction (done properly - i.e.: rest at 66°C for 30mins, then boiled) should ramp one of those big eskys (with the remaining ~200L mash in it) from 55°C to ~63°C in one hit. It's actually a pretty easy step if we've got the space and the extra couple of 100L pots to do it.

Maybe it's worth looking at a completely different strategy: using decoctions to hit the main mash steps we want.
Do it old skool German-style!
Still use some HEXs like we did at Cocko's to refine/ramp an extra degree or 2 and to maintain the temps, but otherwise use gas+pots+decoctions to rapidly jump to higher temps.

-------------------

Agree, that the "Rack-it"(?) shelving setup Cocko provided was fantastic - being able to neatly set up the MLTs in one spot and then have the HLT vessels above to store the heated sparge water was great.

And maybe skip the grain hydration from now on.

 

[droid]

have you guys gravity fed from one mash-tun through to the other or do they need to be heated and pumped independently, would that be like doing a faux re-iterated mash on the second mash tun?

could you have the HEX between the two, so outlet from first mash into HEX then into 2nd mash

soz for not being more on the ball with what you're doing - the winter swap in Kinglake had me bamboozled as to what was happening

 

[technobabble66]

Don't think we've done it, but i think it was considered and discarded as we thought it wasn't really going to add anything beneficial (e.g.: no efficiencies gained) and simply created a larger and *longer* mashing system - it's still a matter of getting kJs as quickly as possible into as much of the total grain bed as possible.
The MLTs in series (rather than the parallel we ran this one) didn't necessarily seem any better or worse at heating the mash, it just seemed easier to set up everything in parallel (esp so we just ran a single HEX on each MLT) so we went with that.

 

[idzy]

Pump issues will be a continual pain in the bum until people wake up and start using pumps made for 50 hz.

Would have thought that most people would have 50hz pumps?

 

[idzy]

I've pictured the flow split between both eskies and it's possible one vessel may get more flow than the other; true, but with a common outlet/suction the pressure should balance between the two.

Float valve, aka blichmann autosparge?

 

[malt junkie]

Would have thought that most people would have 50hz pumps?

Both march and chugger were designed to run @ 3500 rpm @ 60hz. Now they will run @50hz but they are no longer spinning @ 3500 rpm more like 2850 rpm so flow rates and head are compromised by around 20%. We're better off buying from the UK where their power is the same as here and therefore the brewing pumps are designed to run optimally @ 50hz.
Ask moad how well American pumps run under load. The numbers people always quote are the higher flow rates @60hz. Head is dramatically cut @50hz making flow rates a joke for decent size HX coil lengths.
I have checked out a few different options, MDM pumps UK seem to have some good kit but no prices listed, which scares me a little, but was something I was going to chase up in the new year.

 

[VP Brewing]

Just bottled mine. After being pitched onto a Wyeast 3739 Flanders Golden Ale yeast cake and 3x500g (minus what wouldn't come out of the container) additions of dark candy syrup (2 were D2 and the other was some dark I've had for a while and thought it may as well go in) it tapped out at 1.006. I gave it 5 days at FG to finish then a few days at 1°C.
Tastes amazing already and can't wait to try it in a couple of months.

17 Champagne bottles
6 PET longnecks
19 Stubbies