Vic Case Swap Equipment....ongoing..

[malt junkie]

I don't know that a coil IN a really big pot is the best approach, particularly with a large body of residual heat it would be real easy to over shoot your out put temp, while still being well under on the input temp. I know the yanks do gas herms and even rims on smaller scale but the flow rate VS heat bank mean heat can be stripped quite quickly and any over shoot can be recovered from . With a coil in a big (2HL+) pot, any over shoot would continue for a good period. Remember the enzymes we are targeting with temperature are in the wort not just the mash tun.
Believe me I'm all for more power, I was a motorcyclist who lived by the moto "too much power is barely enough" and still some how survived. In this case having a big bank of power when we need it is great but like a motor bike we need to control it's delivery. Hence the CCFC as HX idea; flow of both wort and heat can be adjusted. Or we could build a flash boiler and ramp those puppies with steam but that shit scares me.

ED#2 any of you crazy bastards who go googling flash boiler and then decide to build one, and then either burn or injure themselves or others note: I have here by warned you of said risks and my advice would be to instead be paitient like the rest of us and wait for your wort to boil.

 

[technobabble66]

I understand your point and concur, @malt junkie.
We need to be able to control the heat input into the wort stream. So using a Counter Flow setup would definitely be a better concept.
Also we might be able to leverage the BFK &/or its burners by building up a really big reserve of heat (ie: really large volume of hot water) prior to needing it, ready to run thru the CF system at the appropriate time.

Do you think it best to rig up a tube CF system, or look at a plate system? Those Dudadiesel guys have some seriously impressive HEX plate stacks. Obviously we'd need to ensure the grain bed is settled prior to running it through the plates.

Also, is it better to look at a single big HEX or a few parallel smaller HEXs?

 

[malt junkie]

I like these, so the extra c wasn't a mistake; convoluted counter flow chiller, so the inner tube has twisted ridges that create turbulence, a really chunky one would be awesome, could probably be fabed straight 5 or 6 lengths of say 1m stacked and joined in a zig zag. 3/4 inner tube and inch outer, even in copper. Though Alibaba have some bigger coiled ones that may be worth a look, but as always postage will be the killer.
BTW I hate plate chillers to many tight hard unseen places for grainy bits to stick and hide.

Ed: Link to the updated fancy pance version

 

[droid]

I'm happy to lend one of the 200ltr stainless drums as a HERMS vessel, We might be able to do something for the winter swap with it depending on Husky.

At present it can be Gas fired with a stand underneath on a frame (with an ignitor) - just needs the big coil or a couple of smaller coils and an appropriate pump. We would have to monitor the ramping but I like having some human input on recirc mashing and ramping aka fun brewing. Gas HERMS is a little hit and miss but transportable and only needs a pump. Electric (200ltr) is much more controlled but would require more power than my household could produce I think.

Maybe we can have a bush HERMS and a Power HERMS, I'm still keen on building something of the gas variety anywho, just getting by with power on a 100ltr system let alone 1k

I can feel the HERMS WARS coming on

 

[Whiteferret]

Have a coil that drops into the gas fired HLT that is supplying the sparge water. As long as the burner can ramp the HLT to the next step temp while the previous step is resting.

 

[malt junkie]

I can feel the HERMS WARS coming on

would certainly be interesting on the ramping side, and the flash boiler would work 60c-steam but the snap crackle pop noises are unnerving, and live steam and alcohol don't mix. Also fab would have to be tig,
To explain this

sits inside a stove pipe/flue with a jet burner at the bottom, water is passed(in this case the input is the center) through those tiny tubes and comes out the other end, temperature is controlled by follow rates(both gas and water).

Note with these sorts of things the output HAS to be open or your creating back pressure beyond what the unit will cope with and therefore steam explosion and resulting injuries/death. But like most dangerous toys; very powerful, also very efficient with numbers well above standard direct fire.

 

[TheWiggman]

I think this was discussed earlier, but is electricity definite the best way to go with the HERMS?

Of course it is heathen, Benjamin Franklin didn't spend his life's work studying probably the most significant form of energy to shape modern life only to have it pushed aside in favour of simply 'burning' something that's been sitting in the ground for millennia. Disregarding how we actually generate said electricity in this country.
I like electricity because -
a. It's easy to control
b. You don't run out of bottles of it
c. Quiet
d. Measurably consistent (i.e. 3.6kW = 3.6kW of power) and doesn't get affected by wind
e. Unlikely to burn your house down or explode

Obvious big negatives of electricity is you need the power supply available / suitable circuits and adequate electricity isn't portable.
Generally speaking 10A / 2400W is good for 25 litres comfortably. I'm confident 40 litres would boil with 10A albeit not well. 2 x 2400W elements per Idzy esky has managed to ramp the mash in the past, not rapidly but been up to the task. I think if each HERMS vessel had at least 2 x 2400W elements we'd get reasonable performance and with enough extension cords most homes could cater.

 

[husky]

Have a coil that drops into the gas fired HLT that is supplying the sparge water. As long as the burner can ramp the HLT to the next step temp while the previous step is resting.

You just gave me an idea. The tank temperature could just be set to 80 deg C and a servo driven arm that raises and lowers the coil to achieve the temperature setpoint. Raise the coil for the lower temp steps and lower for stepping up. The projects are endless!

 

[malt junkie]

You just gave me an idea. The tank temperature could just be set to 80 deg C and a servo driven arm that raises and lowers the coil to achieve the temperature setpoint. Raise the coil for the lower temp steps and lower for stepping up. The projects are endless!

Now thats some outside of the box thinking!, are you going to control the burner with solenoid valves?

 

[Mardoo]

Let’s build a robot! Oh, wait…

 

[Mardoo]

I really like the idea of a gas-fired HEX. I’ve been assuming an electric build simply because that’s what I know how to build. Gas removes the issues around residential power limitations and bush-brews. I think being able to take the swaps bush is an awesome idea. Then Idzy’s buckets would see some use for hauling water. We’d need a generator for pumps if we wanted to be free from powered campsites.

I’m a bit less stoked about ideas like using CFC’s or other setups, merely because, AFAIK none of us have tried it. I’m happy to nut out that kind of stuff on a home system, but not on a 700L brew. Also, a number of those solutions require 2 pumps per HEX. I see a huge advantage here in sticking with what we know.

So what are the purposes, needs and possibilities for a new HEX build for the swap system? We don’t need to get so basic as temperature control - I think we can assume those sorts of things. Copy and add:

PURPOSES
1. Ability to ramp temp during mash, as opposed to maintaining temp on a single mash step.

NEEDS
1. If electric, elements are added in multiples of 2400 watts

POSSIBILITIES
1. If we have 2 HEX’s we can run different temps on each mashtun. We’ve used this to our advantage before.

 

[husky]

Now thats some outside of the box thinking!, are you going to control the burner with solenoid valves?

Yes, I'm not a fan of gas, love my electric setup on my 20L but for 700L my gut says gas and I was planning to use a solenoid valve to regulate gas pressure to maintain temp anyways. I'm also really keen to do some bush brews so either gas or the more primitive fire options are the go.

 

[malt junkie]

PURPOSES
1. Ability to ramp temp during mash, as opposed to maintaining temp on a single mash step.

NEEDS
1. If electric, elements are added in multiples of 2400 watts
2. Simplicity of actuation (we don't want a mechanical breakdown screwing brewday)

POSSIBILITIES
1. If we have 2 HEX’s we can run different temps on each mashtun. We’ve used this to our advantage before.
2. (and I know the CFC ain't a popular choice) Hlt (or instant HWS) recirc through coil in the tun. simple and easy! ED: this is while using standard herms to maintain so just a power boost.


@Mardoo i see your scared of steam too

 

[MartinOC]

Mardoo, how's that ex-MR keg HEX project coming? I think that would be a nice, simple, compact solution to all the discussions/dilemmas/requirements.

 

[Mardoo]

Mardoo, how's that ex-MR keg HEX project coming? I think that would be a nice, simple, compact solution to all the discussions/dilemmas/requirements.

It's likely I'll go with the shorter, squat 19L Firestone's MaltJunkie has, simply because it will involve less faffing about to fit two elements in them. If we're going with an electric HEX, that'll be the easiest solution for sure. I'll drop your MR back round to you. Still may use the coil.

The little poll above arose largely because Nullnvoid has offered to sell me his monster SS coil he posted in the HERMS Coil thread he started, and that got a lot of thinking going, as well as an ongoing PM and conversation MaltJunkie and I have been having about the HEX build. A HEX built around Nully's coil would likely work well to run both mashtuns with 4 x 2400w or 3600w elements, but the pumping demand would be high in that scenario. Another option is to build one 19L HEX for each of the big mashtuns, each with 2 x 2400w or 3600w elements.

However, when someone raised the gas-fired HEX option, it seemed a good thing to consider, simply because not everyone lives in a place that has enough amperage on single or separate circuits to handle the needs of 9600w of elements, ideally more. I have the plans for the Brutus 10 system which explain how to set up a solenoid controlled gas heat exchanger. A gas-fired HEX, although a learning curve at first, appears to actually be the simplest solution in the long run.

I really hope folks can contribute to the needs list. It will help work out final decisions about build so we can get this thing done by the March RIS Collab brew.

 

[malt junkie]

Bush brews sound good too!