Money Saver Yeast Question

[floydmeddler]

Hi folks,

I am planning on racking my Irish Stout into secondary on Friday - the same day that I plan to do another brew. Instead of me buying another sachet of yeast, can I simply leave some of the yeast sediment in my primary fermenter and pour my new batch on top of it? If so, how much should I leave?

Cheers as always

Floyd

 

[therook]

Hi folks,

I am planning on racking my Irish Stout into secondary on Friday - the same day that I plan to do another brew. Instead of me buying another sachet of yeast, can I simply leave some of the yeast sediment in my primary fermenter and pour my new batch on top of it? If so, how much should I leave?

Cheers as always

Floyd

Floyd,

This is exactly what i done last brew with a belgian pale ale, i left about one cup full of slurry and dumped a begian dubbel onto it

Rook

 

[Supra-Jim]

Should be fine. Though i do remember hearing/reading something that whatever beer you add to the yeast cake, should be the same, or darker, than the original beer (i.e don't try to ferment a pale ale on your stout yeast cake).

Cheers

SJ

 

[flattop]

yes to all the above, same or darker, but perhaps the whole cake is too much yeast, when i harvest i use 200mls of slurry i would suggest tipping about half the slurry out or you may find the fermentation is too agressive

 

[boingk]

Same as above. Perhaps even start your own yeast store - it isn't hard, I finally got cracking on it the other day by saving some slurry in a small jar. If you are using it in the next 24 hours then refridgeration probably isn't neccesary, but otherwise 'wash' the yeast with water by filling the jar almost to the brim, giving a swirl and then letting settle. Once settled pour the water off and leave the yeast sediment. Top up again with water and refridgerate to store.

Cheers - boingk

 

[Fermented]

If you're bottling / kegging / racking one batch out and starting another batch immediately, then take a cup or two of the slurry into a sanitised vessel (I just use my trusty Pyrex 1 litre jug), top it off to around 600 mls or so with boiled cooled water at around 28C, add 7 - 10 g of dex and give it a stir with a sanitised spoon, cover loosely with glad wrap. By the time you've done your boil and all the other stuff, it's very ready to pitch and should be foaming somewhat - a good sign that it's ready. Pitch, ferment, enjoy!

I understand that this way you can only do it four to five times before there are potentially severe issues with quality. However, it's easier than yeast farming (many good threads about this) albeit not as cost effective.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Bribie G]

Yes I do a variation on all the above, I tip a jug of water that has boiled then left to cool onto the yeast cake, swirl it around till it's the consistency of runny custard and pour about 250 ml into a sanitized 1250ml PET. Top up to half full with more sterile water. Feed it some boiled dex solution or even a couple of carbonation lollies just to revive the yeast. Then I thoroughly wash and sanitize the fermenter and by the time the next brew is in that fermenter and is ready to pitch, the yeast in the PET is clawing its way out of the bottle.

I would never add a new brew to an uncleaned fermenter due to all the krausen scum etc sticking to the inside, sloppy practice IMHO.

 

[flattop]

I agree with Bribie, pitching on top is bad practice BUT i know of a guy who does is successfully and has for years.
That said, i wouldn't eat as his place....

 

[floydmeddler]

Fantastic advice from all of you. Thank you. As I am planning on brewing a Blonde Ale on Friday it seems that I won't be able to use this yeast as it is currently fermenting a stout. Ah well, will give it a go in the future.

Thanks again!

Floyd

 

[raven19]

Yes I do a variation on all the above, I tip a jug of water that has boiled then left to cool onto the yeast cake, swirl it around till it's the consistency of runny custard and pour about 250 ml into a sanitized 1250ml PET. Top up to half full with more sterile water. Feed it some boiled dex solution or even a couple of carbonation lollies just to revive the yeast. Then I thoroughly wash and sanitize the fermenter and by the time the next brew is in that fermenter and is ready to pitch, the yeast in the PET is clawing its way out of the bottle.

I would never add a new brew to an uncleaned fermenter due to all the krausen scum etc sticking to the inside, sloppy practice IMHO.

+1.

It has been discussed previously the generations of yeast, and anything past 6 or 7 generations, you are pushing the limits in regards to unwanted yeast flavours...

It certainly is nice to be able to resue yeast to save some $$$.

Above all, sanitation! Minimal handling of the yeast, etc.

Many others here pitch onto the whole yeast cake.

 

[Damian44]

I was wondering, if i made a 10 litre starter of Wyeast 002 than split it 3 ways would 1 of the starters be enough for a 28 litre (1.040) batch?

 

[warra48]

yes to all the above, same or darker, but perhaps the whole cake is too much yeast, when i harvest i use 200mls of slurry i would suggest tipping about half the slurry out or you may find the fermentation is too agressive

Can anyone enlighten me as to why a whole yeast cake might be "too much"?

I see that repeated from time to time, but have never seen any logical explanation as to why it should be so.

I would think a whole yeast cake would be a good thing, as the yeast is ready to to work straight away, and without the need to aerate the wort, as it is already adapted to working anaerobically.

Without aeration there must be less chance for contamination or infection, and as the yeast do not need to multiply, there should be a lot less unwanted by-products from yeast growth.

And how does one define a fermentation as too aggressive?

 

[loftboy]

Can anyone enlighten me as to why a whole yeast cake might be "too much"?

I see that repeated from time to time, but have never seen any logical explanation as to why it should be so.

I would think a whole yeast cake would be a good thing, as the yeast is ready to to work straight away, and without the need to aerate the wort, as it is already adapted to working anaerobically.

Without aeration there must be less chance for contamination or infection, and as the yeast do not need to multiply, there should be a lot less unwanted by-products from yeast growth.

And how does one define a fermentation as too aggressive?

IIRC, the biggest issue with over pitching is insufficient yeast growth during fermentation, causing the yeast to possibly flake out before the intended attenuation is reached. Also, don't forget that whilst the yeast is multiplying, some of the byproducts that are given off, maybe flavour components for the style you are brewing.

 

[raven19]

I was wondering, if i made a 10 litre starter of Wyeast 002 than split it 3 ways would 1 of the starters be enough for a 28 litre (1.040) batch?

More than enough, depending on how much sugar is in your starter.

Not sure on this particular yeast, however, split 3 ways = 3.3 L of yeast & water/beer. Heeluva lot to add to 28L. (Once a starter this large has fermenter out you could shake it up then bottle some of it and keep in fridge.)

I would be going for something more like a 1L starter for an ale, and around 1.5L for a lager.

Also, depending on how large your yeast batch is to start with, its best to limit your steps to around 10x. So if you had 100ml of yeast slurry, then make a 1L, then once that is almost done, pitch that into a 10L batch to keep it going. Hope this makes sense.

 

[Fermented]

Can anyone enlighten me as to why a whole yeast cake might be "too much"?

I see that repeated from time to time, but have never seen any logical explanation as to why it should be so.

I would think a whole yeast cake would be a good thing, as the yeast is ready to to work straight away, and without the need to aerate the wort, as it is already adapted to working anaerobically.

Without aeration there must be less chance for contamination or infection, and as the yeast do not need to multiply, there should be a lot less unwanted by-products from yeast growth.

And how does one define a fermentation as too aggressive?

Re: Too much
The whole cake would be too much because it has already bred and multiplied many times from the original 5/7/12 gm pack from which the yeast came.

Too much yeast = ballistic fermentation through the airlock.

Have a check around... I think Jase71 (Jayse71?) pitched on the whole cake and reported it in another thread. I reported on double-dosing yeast for a toucan and that was bad enough. Let alone the sanitation (read: infection vector) issues that Bribie pointed out.

Re: Aeration
As I understand it, and please - someone cut me down if I am wrong, yeast needs oxygen in the reproductive stage prior to alcohol and CO2 production.

Therefore, after wort is made and yeast is added, it's a nice idea to give the yeast some oxygen via aeration in order that they can multiply in order to do our beery bidding.

So far, works for me and some others. YMMV, etc.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[mika]

As everyone has mentioned.

Aeration - Yeast need oxygen to multiply, it's only after the oxygen has run out that they turn to chewing sugars and producing alcohol, yeast doesn't want to do this, but it will to stay alive.

Overpitching - Been searching for an answer about this myself, though I'm yet to re-pitch. Even in interview's with the White Brothers (Whitelabs yeast) they've been less than convincing in their statements. It seems as though one large overpitch probably has negligble effect on that beer, however re-pitching from that again will almost certainly start to cause off flavours in the beer such as actelyaldehyde (spelling ?) which is a green apples taste in the beer. Also as the others have mentioned, a large overpitch can lead to increased temperature when fermenting, with some reporting such violent fermentation that the fridge couldn't reign it in. Also in some styles, esters produced from yeast growth are a big part of the style. Most ales, especially most english beers, can really come to life if underpitched slightly to promote more ester production, though you do run the risk of the yeast getting too stressed and not finishing out.
On one of the BN shows with the Whites there was a question about yeast re-pitching and how much of the slurry you really wanted to throw back in. The generally accepted rule is 0.5million yeast cells per mL per degs Plato (even for original pitching), with ~33% of the trub in the bottom of the fermentor being viable yeast. I didn't take notes on all that was said, but basically for a 1040-1045 beer of ~20L, you need ~3/4cup (190mL) of yeast slurry to re-pitch

 

[Jase71]

Have a check around... I think Jase71 (Jayse71?) pitched on the whole cake and reported it in another thread.

No, not me. But I have reserved the yeast from previous batches and used approx 100ml of it before, with great results. Was neither underfermenting or overfermenting, but just right

Actually Im going to get a JSGA going today, and planning to use some reserved S04 thats been in the fridge for two months - would this be still OK to use after that tim ? It doesnt look nasty, and it smells Ok (well it smells like beer!). I dont need to use it, because I have an unopened packet somewhere (S05 i think) but I would like to try and use the reserved trub if possible.

 

[Fermented]

I agree with Mika about pitching from slurry.

I've read so much about pitching a cup o' slurry but thought to double up 'just in case'. I have been using two cups into 600 ml with 10 - 14 g dex, after bottling while making the next wort. After an hour it becomes foamy, so by the time the boil is done, it's well ready to pitch.

However, after a few brews of doing this I feel that it's a case of overpitching and that the results lack the complexity of pitching the right amount because the faster and more aggressive fermentation seems to produce results that are just, well, less complex compared to doing it correctly. Yes, the quick fermentation take-off is there, yes, it finishes sooner but no, it doesn't taste as good and doesn't bring about the complete character of the wort or the yeast. Close... but still not right.

Or maybe my tastebuds are telling me porkies.

My $0.02, YMMV, etc...

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Fermented]

No, not me.

Apologies! My memory is already failing me... and I haven't even been drinking yet... aside from three doppio espressos.

Cheers - Fermented.

 

[Gavo]

Actually Im going to get a JSGA going today, and planning to use some reserved S04 thats been in the fridge for two months - would this be still OK to use after that tim ? It doesnt look nasty, and it smells Ok (well it smells like beer!). I dont need to use it, because I have an unopened packet somewhere (S05 i think) but I would like to try and use the reserved trub if possible.

Jase, reusing that yeast would be fine I have just used some Nottingham that I bottled in October. I would proof it first though in some wort and do a taste test before using it just to be sure. I make a starter for all of my farmed/reused yeast. I am still to use a yeast straight away as I usually have a week or two between brews ATM.

Cheers
Gavo.