Different wort aeration kits

[Exile]

So from my reading the Brewman kit has a regulator approved for use with oxygen, with a non-approved for oxygen use pressure gauge attached. Of course, that's just my layman's reading.

I have emailed Wika the makers of the Gauges asking if these gauges where safe with oxygen and the reply was.....

[SIZE=12pt]All pure oxygen bottles are required to have a gauge “cleaned for oxygen’[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This is because any dirt grime or oil will cause a spark and potentially an explosion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This gauge is not[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] “clean for oxygen”[/SIZE]

 

[Benn]

Came across this interesting page while looking for infomation on AS-4267
http://www.tesuco.com.au/blog/2012-12/new-blog-oxygen-regulators-the-bomb-test-(as4267)

FWIW here is a pic of the "WIKA" brand pressure gauge on my Oxygen regulator.

 

[eldertaco]

Came across this interesting page while looking for infomation on AS-4267
http://www.tesuco.com.au/blog/2012-12/new-blog-oxygen-regulators-the-bomb-test-(as4267)

Found that same page earlier while looking for the same thing. Also found this post http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/67241-oxyturbo-aeration-kit/?p=1159363 which mentions the tesuco oxyturbo gas regulator (ots200RO) for use with the oxyturbo bottles...

Then when you look at that product code on the tesuco page http://www.tesuco.com.au/products/spare-parts-and-fittings/portable-brazing-equipment/turboset-200 you find this picture



Which clearly has a not-approved-for-oxygen ISO 5171 gauge on it. :unsure:

Which left me unsure what to think.

 

[fishingbrad]

I have emailed Wika the makers of the Gauges asking if these gauges where safe with oxygen and the reply was.....

[SIZE=12pt]All pure oxygen bottles are required to have a gauge “cleaned for oxygen’[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This is because any dirt grime or oil will cause a spark and potentially an explosion.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]This gauge is not[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] “clean for oxygen”[/SIZE]

Does say "All pure Oxygen bottles" which would be Lab/ Medical ?. can we assume the disposables are not "pure" ??

 

[eldertaco]

I think when they say pure they mean it's 99%+ oxygen, and not mixed with say argon for welding purposes.

 

[Bribie G]

Over 300 posts, man this thread has really exploded.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

It should be possible to predict the amount of oxygen generated based on the amount of chemicals used. Are there other cheap and readily available chemicals that would provide a clean and safe oxygen source for a method like this?

Standard percarbonate is 27.5% H202 equivalent so the available oxygen is 13%.

Another possibility is simple electrolysis of water: you get hydrogen at the cathode and oxygen at the anode. If you run a solar system this would be free in both the senses above.

You would need to know the internal volume of the equipment and the pressure required to get flow out of the sinter when submerged in wort. The pressure could be measured with a simple water manometer.

If I keep brazing the stainless bits on the bikes I am thinking of converting to an oxygen generator / acetylene system which would definitely work for wort oxygenation. At this stage though I think I'm going to move to TIG welding.

 

[Feldon]

Right, now that the regulator battles seem to be in ceasefire...

Taking a different approach to the problem of introducing the appropriate amount of oxygen into wort. An approach that does not involve oxygen under high pressure. Would it be practical to use a simple chemical process to generate enough oxygen at low pressure to oxygenate wort? For example, place some sodium percarbonate into a flask, add hot water and plug the flask with a hose that is connected to a diffuser submerged in wort? It should be possible to predict the amount of oxygen generated based on the amount of chemicals used. Are there other cheap and readily available chemicals that would provide a clean and safe oxygen source for a method like this?

Good idea for those who don't want the upfront cost of an O2 gas bottle setup.

A better approach than generating gaseous oxygen by chemical reaction to bubble through the wort might be to add hydrogen peroxide to, say, a litre of water and adding all of that directly into the wort pre yeast pitching (Hydrogen peroxide breaks down to oxygen and water).

How much standard 3% hydrogen peroxide solution to add? Dunno. Have to leave that the the Sheldon Coopers to work out. But here's some of the science on oxygenating wort from an old 2008 Brew Your Own magazine article, 'Are welding oxygen canisters safe to use for wort aeration?'.

Let’s say you want to add 8 mg/L of oxygen to your 20-liter batch, you can see that you will need 160 mg of oxygen... 160 mg is equivalent to 0.005 moles of oxygen (0.16 grams/32 grams of oxygen per mole = 0.005 moles). If you multiply 0.005 moles by 22.4 l/mole you see that 0.112 liters of oxygen are required to supply the 160 mg required to yield a concentration of 8 ppm in your 20 liters of wort.

https://byo.com/mead/item/2040-are-welding-oxygen-canisters-are-safe-to-use-for-wort-aeration

 

[Zorco]

Over 300 posts, man this thread has really exploded.

the pursuit of truth can take a windy road.

 

[feralbass]

This has been a great read!!

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Sheldon Brown here.

Peroxide is 16 / 34 available oxygen so to get 8 ppm O2 you need 17 ppm peroxide. if your solution is 30% you would need to add 17 x 10-6 / 3 x 10 -1 which is 5.7 x 10-5 parts, call it 6. That's 60 ul of 30 % peroxide per litre of wort or 1.2ml for 20 litres.

Edit: Just noticed you said 3%, sorry, I usually use peroxide at 30%. Just multiply volumes by 10 eg 0.6 ml per litre of wort, 12 ml for 20 litres.

I'd be interested to know how this goes: yes peroxide breaks down to oxygen and water but from experience when adding it to white grape juice, it does a lot of oxidation before it breaks down.

 

[manticle]

So our consensus is that the dynaweld/bossweld regulators are not appropriate for use with pressurised Oxygen, Yes?
Just want to make it clear - I will probably need to do some more judicious thread pruning

Anyone who still thinks they are OK - please PM me rather than post here just so we can stave off any more shitfighting.

Safety of members is the main priority here.

Cheers

 

[Zorco]

Instead of pruning, you should leave history as it is... None of the recommendations are malicious. No one has actually been harmed with this equipment to date.(h&s notices search through work)

Instead, paste a big link saying,"The conclusion of this debate is that these regulators are not safe. This is not the view of Authorities, but is the conclusion from our community members." And link to the end of the discussion.

If someone takes this up with an authority and succeeds in having the product removed from Australia, then Rule 4 can be invoked.

Remember, no one has evidence these are not safe.

 

[manticle]

My method of moderating wasn't so much intending on removing material but adding edited lines with a warning about not being used as designed by manufacturer or somesuch.

 

[SBOB]

Instead of pruning, you should leave history as it is... None of the recommendations are malicious. No one has actually been harmed with this equipment to date.(h&s notices search through work)

Instead, paste a big link saying,"The conclusion of this debate is that these regulators are not safe. This is not the view of Authorities, but is the conclusion from our community members." And link to the end of the discussion.

If someone takes this up with an authority and succeeds in having the product removed from Australia, then Rule 4 can be invoked.

Remember, no one has evidence these are not safe.

indeed... considering the gauge on one of the alternatives doesnt seem to be 100% oxygen compliant i think this thread should remain as is for future information and continued research

personally, for non welding applications I think the Bossweld regulator is suitable for the application in question based on its EN certification and the knowledge that i wont be using any oil lubricants on it

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

How do you know Bossweld haven't used oil and lubricants inside the reg?

It's one thing to say that there is no proof that the boss weld etc refs are not safe. But that is inherently wrong as when safety is concerned you should employ the reverse logic being that until there is evidence that they ARE safe for oxygen use then people should tread wearily and perhaps look at other alternatives which are stamped for oxygen use.

Re: types/grades of oxygen, the method of manufacture and location of such is the same, it all comes from air through the same air separation units. The processing, transfer and filling downstream however will vary.

I think my point last time was more around the risks of contaminants and particles entrained in oxygen being so great that the impurity levels in oxygen will be extremely low no matter which grade.

Industrial, good grade etc is another kettle of fish. I can confirm medical is handled and processed/filled in a completely different process. The others may or may not be but there are certainly efficiencies in filling from one process as opposed to many different pieces of equipment for many different gas types.

I recall visiting an ice cream facility where the 'no name' brand was filled from same line and actually same product as the 'named brand', absolutely no different other than the label. So it's nothing new in mass manufacturing.

 

[SBOB]

How do you know Bossweld haven't used oil and lubricants inside the reg?

well, considering they previously (MHB called and apparently they no longer do) sold disposable oxygen cylinders with the same regulator and advertised them all in the same 'disposable' range I would find it strange for them to list a regulator incompatible with disposable cylinders that they sold at the time...

Also, if contained oil wouldn't it be an automatic flammable/explosive hazard?

But how do we know any of the alternatives don't either, as some of their gauges do not seem to adhere to being oxygen compliant, but none of those are seeming to be scrutinised

 

[Zorco]

indeed... considering the gauge on one of the alternatives doesnt seem to be 100% oxygen compliant i think this thread should remain as is for future information and continued research

personally, for non welding applications I think the Bossweld regulator is suitable for the application in question based on its EN certification and the knowledge that i wont be using any oil lubricants on it

yeah, I think you're wrong mate. And I can support it. My company doesn't have an ISO subscription at the moment but this is handy

https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:iso:5171:ed-3:v1:en

On the left you have the TOC you can expand Section 5 down to 5.1.2. There you see a dedicated section for Oxygen.

That standard covers many... you want Oxygen specific. ISO 5171 marked means stuff all for meeting oxygen requirements.


The way you reasoned is the danger. We're looking for "USE NO OIL" on the gauge.


And here

http://www.wikapolska.pl/upload/DS_PM0106_GB_4027.pdf

A data sheet applying the safety pattern of ISO 5171 and the "USE NO OIL" symbol.

Check again mate.

 

[SBOB]

The way you reasoned is the danger. We're looking for "USE NO OIL" on the gauge.


And here

http://www.wikapolska.pl/upload/DS_PM0106_GB_4027.pdf

A data sheet applying the safety pattern of ISO 5171 and the "USE NO OIL" symbol.

Check again mate.

then there isn't currently any disposable kit being sold thats going to tick that box...

 

[Zorco]

well, considering they previously (MHB called and apparently they no longer do) sold disposable oxygen cylinders with the same regulator and advertised them all in the same 'disposable' range I would find it strange for them to list a regulator incompatible with disposable cylinders that they sold at the time...

This is the point....It isn't strange.. it is wrong. You may well find one of us pursing this with a federal regulator.

MHB said he would do something similar.... But I'd understand it if he was cashed in on this one.

I'll make some calls tomorrow.


Edit: Soz SBOB...removed the grumpy in the first line.