Different wort aeration kits

[peteru]

Right, now that the regulator battles seem to be in ceasefire...

Taking a different approach to the problem of introducing the appropriate amount of oxygen into wort. An approach that does not involve oxygen under high pressure. Would it be practical to use a simple chemical process to generate enough oxygen at low pressure to oxygenate wort? For example, place some sodium percarbonate into a flask, add hot water and plug the flask with a hose that is connected to a diffuser submerged in wort? It should be possible to predict the amount of oxygen generated based on the amount of chemicals used. Are there other cheap and readily available chemicals that would provide a clean and safe oxygen source for a method like this?

 

[MHB]

Lots of reaction pathways to make free (as in the gas not $'s) Oxygen.
Apart from the initial cost of an O2 system, the ongoing cost per brew is so low I doubt that a chemical alternative would be cost effective, even something like perk would be a lot more expensive.
Mark

 

[eldertaco]

Ok, I found a copy of ISO 5171:2010. Not too much in it about oxygen but it does say that for an oxygen gauge the dial must be marked with OXYGEN or O and the crossed out oil symbol.

I'll post some bits copy pasted, and a pic or two, hopefully not against the rules.

1 Scope
This International Standard specifies requirements for Bourdon-tube pressure gauges normally used with
compressed gas systems at pressures up to 30 MPa (300 bar) in welding, cutting and allied processes. It also
covers use for dissolved acetylene and for liquefied gases under pressure.
It does not cover gauges for acetylene in acetylene-manufacturing plants.
2 Normative references
The following referenced documents are indispensable for the application of this document. For dated
references, only the edition cited applies. For undated references, the latest edition of the referenced
document (including any amendments) applies.
ISO 7-1, Pipe threads where pressure-tight joints are made on the threads — Part 1: Dimensions, tolerances
and designation
ISO 228-1, Pipe threads where pressure-tight joints are not made on the threads — Part 1: Dimensions,
tolerances and designation
ISO 497, Guide to the choice of series of preferred numbers and of series containing more rounded values of
preferred numbers
ISO 4589-2:1996, Plastics — Determination of burning behaviour by oxygen index — Part 2: Ambienttemperature
test
ISO 9539, Materials for equipment used in gas welding, cutting and allied processes
ISO 10102, Assembly tools for screws and nuts — Double-headed open-ended engineers' wrenches —
Length of wrenches and thickness of the heads
ANSI/ASME B1.20.1, Pipe threads, general purpose (inch) 1)

<snip>


4.3 Maximum pressure mark
The maximum operating pressure shall be indicated on the dial by a symbol or coloured mark and shall not
exceed 3/4 of the maximum scale reading.
NOTE For pressure gauges used with regulators conforming to ISO 2503, the maximum pressure mark is normally p2
for low-pressure gauges and p1 for high-pressure gauges, as defined in ISO 2503:1998, Table 4.

https://i.imgur.com/C3Fn6YU.png


5 Manufacturing requirements
5.1 Materials
5.1.1 General
The materials of the pressure gauge components liable to come into contact with the gas shall have adequate
resistance to the chemical action of the gas under operating conditions.
Bourdon tubes and other parts in contact with acetylene gas shall conform to ISO 9539.
5.1.2 Oxygen pressure gauges
Bourdon tubes and other parts in contact with the gas shall be resistant to the chemical action of the oxygen
and shall not be flammable under operating conditions.
Thread sealants or sealing rings shall also be resistant to the chemical action of the oxygen and shall not be
flammable under operating conditions.
Components in contact with oxygen gas shall conform to ISO 9539.
Only lubricants suitable for use in oxygen at the service pressure and temperature shall be used.


<snip>


http://imgur.com/VGXcste

 

[Exile]

For anyone that is interested, here are some pics of Brewmans regulator

Ok, I found a copy of ISO 5171:2010. Not too much in it about oxygen but it does say that for an oxygen gauge the dial must be marked with OXYGEN or O and the crossed out oil symbol.

I believe that Brewmans regulator has the O stamped on them

 

[eldertaco]

So ISO 5171:2010 only refers to the gauges. At this stage I think what we're after is

ISO 2503:2009/ A1:2015 - Gas welding equipment -- Pressure regulators and pressure regulators with flow-metering devices for gas cylinders used in welding, cutting and allied processes up to 300 bar (30 MPa)

 

[eldertaco]

I believe that Brewmans regulator has the O stamped on them

And it also says EN 2503 which is what I'm pretty sure now is the relevant standard for the regulator part. Bit of a shame the gauge doesn't look to be compliant with 5171 though, as there is no use no oil or oxygen marked on it.

 

[Exile]

And it also says EN 2503 which is what I'm pretty sure now is the relevant standard for the regulator part. Bit of a shame the gauge doesn't look to be compliant with 5171 though, as there is no use no oil or oxygen marked on it.

It has ISO 5171 stamped on the Gauge tho

 

[eldertaco]

Well it would be compliant if it were connected to anything except oxygen or acetylene, see my second link above.

 

[Zorco]

It has ISO 5171 stamped on the Gauge tho

20160824_131256_001.jpg

ISO 5171:2009 specifies requirements for Bourdon-tube pressure gauges normally used with compressed gas systems at pressures up to 30 MPa (300 bar) in welding, cutting and allied processes. It also covers use for dissolved acetylene and for liquefied gases under pressure. It does not cover gauges for acetylene in acetylene-manufacturing plants.

Logically, just because this gauge states compliance to 5171, DOES NOT mean that it is suited to Oxygen. I'll try and find a copy, but I think I'd be looking for the section on Oxygen and wouldn't be surprised to find the requirement "USE NO OIL"

 

[fishingbrad]

For anyone that is interested, here are some pics of Brewmans regulator

Top.jpg

20160824_131256_001.jpg



I believe that Brewmans regulator has the O stamped on them

O.jpg

Yep that's the one I've got. I tried to read the stamping this morning without my glasses- Fail. so thanks for the photo.

 

[eldertaco]

Found a copy of ISO2503:2009 (not the 2015 revision though).


Gas welding equipment — Pressure regulators and pressure
regulators with flow-metering devices for gas cylinders used in
welding, cutting and allied processes up to 300 bar (30 MPa)

1 Scope
This International Standard specifies requirements for single or two-stage pressure regulators without flowmetering
devices for connection to gas cylinders used for
⎯ compressed gases up to 300 bar 1) (30 MPa),
⎯ dissolved acetylene,
⎯ liquefied petroleum gases (LPG),
⎯ methylacetylene-propadiene mixtures (MPS), and
⎯ carbon dioxide (CO2),
for use in welding, cutting and allied processes. It does not cover pressure regulators having a nominal outlet
pressure p2 > 20 bar.
This International Standard also specifies requirements for single or two-stage pressure regulators with flowmetering
devices for connection to gas cylinders used for
⎯ compressed gases or mixtures up to 300 bar (30 MPa), and
⎯ carbon dioxide (CO2),
for use in welding, cutting and allied processes. Typical processes using this equipment are: tungsten inert-gas
arc welding (TIG), metal-arc inert-gas welding (MIG), metal-arc active-gas welding (MAG), plasma arc welding,
tubular-cored-wiretubular-cored-wire welding and plasma cutting. Annex B gives examples of flow-control
systems and their flow-measuring devices.
This International Standard does not cover pressure regulators intended for direct use on cylinder bundles.
Such regulators comply with the safety requirements of ISO 7291, in particular with the adiabatic compression
test for oxygen regulators.

<snip>


5.2 Design and construction
5.2.1 Oxygen pressure regulators
Pressure regulators for oxygen shall be designed and manufactured while giving consideration to the
possibility for internal ignition. Pressure regulators for oxygen shall not ignite or show evidence of burning
when submitted to the ignition test in 9.7.4.
All components and accessories shall be thoroughly cleaned and degreased before assembly.

<snip>

http://imgur.com/ddnWLEK

6.3 Equipment classes for pressure regulators without flow-metering devices


Performance is measured at the standard discharge Q1 and nominated outlet pressure specified by the
manufacturer.
Preferred values of p2 and Q1 are given in Table 3, but other values may be specified by the manufacturer.

http://imgur.com/DpMpAKJ

http://imgur.com/Ebhctpb


8 Instructions for use
The manufacturer, supplier or distributor shall supply instructions for use with each pressure regulator,
and with each pressure regulator with a flow-metering device, covering at least:
a) the field of application of the pressure regulator; or
B) the field of application of the pressure regulator with a flow-metering device; in particular the range of
specific gravity of the gases or gas mixtures for which it can be used;
EXAMPLE Flow meter which can be used for mixtures ranging from an argon-carbon dioxide mixture (specific
gravity: 1,69) up to an argon-hydrogen mixture (specific mass: 1,57).
c) a description of the pressure regulator, or of the pressure regulator with a flow-metering device and the
meaning of the marking;
d) the safe and correct installation of the pressure regulator, or of the pressure regulator with a flowmetering
device;
e) the commissioning tests that are necessary to prove safe and correct installation prior to service;
f) the use and maintenance of the pressure regulator, or of the pressure regulator with a flow-metering
device (intended for the operator);
g) hazards and safety precautions in the case of oxygen.




9 Type-test procedure
9.1 General
Checking conformity to this International Standard of a pressure regulator, or a pressure regulator with a flowmetering
device of a given type, consists of
⎯ tests, and
⎯ checking of documents.
Conformity to the requirements of the present International Standard can be confirmed by an independent
body.
The oxygen ignition test (see 9.7.4) shall be carried out after the tests for performance and operating
characteristics (see 6.6.1 and 6.6.2) and before the resistance test to internal pressure (see 9.7.2.1).
NOTE These are type tests applicable to pressure regulators only for verifying conformity to this International Standard
and are not intended as a programme for production testing of all pressure regulators.

The rest of the references to oxygen are with reference to the test procedures, not really relevant here.


So from my reading the Brewman kit has a regulator approved for use with oxygen, with a non-approved for oxygen use pressure gauge attached. Of course, that's just my layman's reading.

 

[n87]

For those interested in getting refillable cylinders, have a look at Gasweld.
They actually sell them, though its an exchange, not a refill.
And it looks like they only have a D and G size in oxygen (would be great if they had a C)

Bulk buy may work in this case?

 

[mstrelan]

For those interested in getting refillable cylinders, have a look at Gasweld.
They actually sell them, though its an exchange, not a refill.
And it looks like they only have a D and G size in oxygen (would be great if they had a C)

Bulk buy may work in this case?

Is this the C one you're after? http://www.gasweld.com.au/speed-gas-gas-kit-oxygen-c-size-includes-bottle-oxygen-gas-oxygen-c-kit

 

[mstrelan]

I believe Gas Weld is a distributor of Speed Gas products.

SpeedGas sells Beer Gas (N + CO2), perhaps they would be more open to the home brewing community.

Is it strange that they list Oxygen as non-flammable on their Safety Data Sheet?

 

[MHB]

Yep I have a C sized Argon bottle, Needed a little bottle that I could carry up a ladder to do some TIG work.
They told me the bottle could be returned for a refund - like Bunnings. No, apparently they changed their minds, you buy it you own it for life (eBay/Gumtree excepted).

If I were to go for a larger O2 bottle I would look at the one from Bunnings or one of the other swap and go offers. But I would want assurance in writing that I could return it and get a refund - That did get me pissed off.
Be a while before Gasweld see any more of my money.
Mark

 

[n87]

I believe Gas Weld is a distributor of Speed Gas products.

SpeedGas sells Beer Gas (N + CO2), perhaps they would be more open to the home brewing community.

Is it strange that they list Oxygen as non-flammable on their Safety Data Sheet?

Oxygen itself inst technically flammable.
However, it is one of the required components for combustion

 

[Crusty]

Do any of you guys know if there is an actual difference in oxygen grades. I saw on the BOC website that they have oxygen listed as food grade as well as other grades. Is there really a difference? Ive been told my Tradeflame cylinder was not food grade.

 

[n87]

Yep I have a C sized Argon bottle, Needed a little bottle that I could carry up a ladder to do some TIG work.
They told me the bottle could be returned for a refund - like Bunnings. No, apparently they changed their minds, you buy it you own it for life (eBay/Gumtree excepted).

If I were to go for a larger O2 bottle I would look at the one from Bunnings or one of the other swap and go offers. But I would want assurance in writing that I could return it and get a refund - That did get me pissed off.
Be a while before Gasweld see any more of my money.
Mark

I got a D Argon/CO2 mix for my mig a couple of years ago. Was the best bang for buck around at the time that I found.
The main thing that got me in was the whole 'you own it' thing.

 

[technobabble66]

Do any of you guys know if there is an actual difference in oxygen grades. I saw on the BOC website that they have oxygen listed as food grade as well as other grades. Is there really a difference? Ive been told my Tradeflame cylinder was not food grade.

Someone, i think maybe DJ_L3thal (?, as i believe he works in the gas industry), stated a while back (this year sometime) on this or another thread that at their refill site, the Food grade & Industrial grade O2 comes from the same batch - i.e.: it's all food grade, as it's easier to just produce it all at that one standard.
Sorry - i know that's effectively just hearsay, but it might point you in the direction of where to look for better info.

FWIW, the big problem i had talking to Companion Brands a few months ago about using their setup (from Bunnings) to aerate wort was all about the gas "expert"/engineer in the office not being comfortable with me using the oxygen on a food/beverage product.
He seemed totally fine with the "conversion kit" regulator they sell at bunnings being ok for their disposable bottles, but was VERY uncomfortable with the O2 in their bottles not being officially classed as Food Grade. Seemed a bit arse about to me. I believe he basically agreed that the oxygen had to be ~pure out of their bottles, but as it still wasn't classed as Food Grade so he had to warn me not to use it.
I was much more concerned about whether i'd be blowing up in the process!

 

[Coldspace]

So does the brewman regulator fit theses trade flame bottles?