Different wort aeration kits

[DJ_L3ThAL]

If it's an air bottle and reg that can't happen. We're talking oxygen.

Also please Crusty et al, just because nothing has happened yet does not mean it won't. You would not sign off advice that it 'will not explode' if you were truly under the obligation of the OH&S Act. So please don't do it from behind your keyboard.

Arm yourself with the knowledge and understanding of the risks and limitations of oxygen use and equipment in oxygen use and make an informed decision. It's sadly not one of those things you can just rest assure everything will be OK.

In reality there are MAJOR industrial installations which have oxygen processing equipment, designed and certified for oxygen use that employ explosion proof barriers around it, because NOONE can guarantee there won't be an explosion due to Oxygen. I work with this stuff first hand, everyday.

Flashback arrestors typically work by 'cooling' an ignition inside the regulator or pipeline as a heat sink. They don't guarantee there won't be an ignition but are a decent last line of defence and they don't stop the flow of oxygen. Kind of like PPE.

Hope this helps open people's eyes and prevent any injuries or losses.

 

[Zorco]

I'm puzzled that something with as much risk as compressed O2 (disposable) isn't covered by an Australian Standard. There should be a link to an Aussie authority. We just need to find it.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

There aren't? Odd, because my understanding is:

AS 4267—1995 Pressure regulators for use with industrial compressed gas cylinders

Definitions tell me 3.1 Compressed gas regulator—a regulator fitted with inlet fittings complying with AS 2473 and used for reducing a generally variable inlet pressure to an outlet pressure (to be constant as possible) in connection with the flow rate which may be changed.

Not sure why the above definition wouldn't apply to a disposable bottle, it's still regulating a compressed gas.

The contents are (App A & B of relevance to this thread too!):

1 SCOPE .................................................... 4
2 REFERENCED DOCUMENTS ................................... 4
3 DEFINITIONS ............................................... 4
4 GENERAL DESIGN REQUIREMENTS ............................. 5
5 SPECIFIC DESIGN REQUIREMENTS ............................. 6
6 CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS .............................. 6
7 PERFORMANCE ............................................. 7
8 MARKING ................................................. 9
APPENDICES
A PROMOTED IGNITION TEST . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10
B OXYGEN SHOCK-TYPE TEST . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11
C HYDROSTATIC-TYPE TEST ON HIGH-PRESSURE SIDE OF REGULATOR 13
D GAS PRESSURE RETENTION-TYPE TEST ON LOW-PRESSURE SIDE
OF REGULATOR . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 14
E GAS TIGHTNESS TEST . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 15
F PERFORMANCE TESTS . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 16

Also other relevant standards:
AS 4289-1995 Oxygen and acetylene gas reticulation systems
AS 2896-2011 Medical gas systems
AS 3840.1—1998 Pressure regulators for use with medical gases


Also this is covered as a Dangerous Good under the NOHSC Storage and Handling of Workplace Dangerous Goods NATIONAL CODE OF PRACTICE [NOHSC:2017(2001)]

Happy researching

 

[Zorco]

Ohh, yep, I ran this line. Go back a few pages and I've posted from that standard.

 

[Zorco]

So at Bunnings to figure this out. Cylinder to EN 12205

Valve to EN ISO 13340

Welding gear to EN1326

Can't read gauge re oil.

 

[TSMill]

There aren't? Odd, because my understanding is:

AS 4267—1995 Pressure regulators for use with industrial compressed gas cylinders

Definitions tell me 3.1 Compressed gas regulator—a regulator fitted with inlet fittings complying with AS 2473 and used for reducing a generally variable inlet pressure to an outlet pressure (to be constant as possible) in connection with the flow rate which may be changed.

Not sure why the above definition wouldn't apply to a disposable bottle, it's still regulating a compressed gas.

Definitions tend to be broader than the scope of the standards they are contained witihin. This is specifically for regulators on gas cylinders as defined in AS 2030, which does not include disposables.

Whatever you do, just make sure your oxygen regulator is magnesium free, otherwise........OMg!

 

[Zorco]

BS
BS EN

That's good stuff

 

[Crusty]

Also please Crusty et al, just because nothing has happened yet does not mean it won't. You would not sign off advice that it 'will not explode' if you were truly under the obligation of the OH&S Act. So please don't do it from behind your keyboard.

That's right, I'm under no obligation whatsoever. Do you spend all your life worrying about the possibility that something bad may happen?
Do you walk across the road & worry you may get run over? It hasn't happened yet but it might happen.
Of course things can go wrong & accidents can happen. The Bossgas regulator is perfectly fine to use. I can give you the 4 contacts I spoke to regarding it's use for oxygen. If it was risky to use it, I'd throw the thing in the bin as the potential of harming myself or someone else is too important. These regulators have been used for years & with oxygen & not one of the 4 retailers I spoke to have heard of any such explosions or anyone being harmed by using them. I spoke to a gas fitter at work this afternoon & showed him my setup & there's another one that says there should be no issues using it with oxygen. Maybe one day it might blow up, but I doubt it.
Has anyone considered or even bat an eyelid that the disposable oxygen cylinders & the regulators are not food grade?
Is there actually a difference? The only true way to supply your wort with food grade oxygen if there is a difference, is to get the proper equipment which is a bit more expensive.
A D-size food grade oxygen cylinder & a Cigweld Cutskill Oxygen regulator would do the trick if they are in fact food grade.
Dan's got the best setup I've seen on here #29. A lot more expensive than the disposable route but the right way to go about it.

 

[mstrelan]

Out of interest I emailed Companion Brands (Tradeflame) asking if they sell a regulator for use with the disposal O2 cylinders. They responded:

"We do have a regulator that fits our oxygen bottles, however our oxygen is for industrial use only. NOT intended for brewing."

Personally I don't care what it was "intended" to be used for, but I assume they are not interested in being responsible if there was some issue with non-food grade O2 being used in beer.

 

[Batz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slOY4cSVfy8

 

[Crusty]

Absolute gold Batz.

 

[eldertaco]

Sounds like they're sick of fielding brewers enquiries? Fwiw I notice that the tradeflame welding kit which the bottle is intended to be used with does come with spark/flame arrestors.

 

[DJ_L3ThAL]

That's right, I'm under no obligation whatsoever. Do you spend all your life worrying about the possibility that something bad may happen?
Do you walk across the road & worry you may get run over? It hasn't happened yet but it might happen.

Yes I do! I don't go outside and I just play Limp Bizkit on the CD player 24/7. The odd occasion I do need to go outside or travel anywhere, I get into my Spruce Goose and off I go.

In all srsness, risk acceptance is something we confront every second of our lives in someway. You may be comfortable with the decisions you made, others may not be, we won't get away from that.

I agree, your boss gas regulator probably won't fail. But probability x consequence, where consequence is that I could start a fire, get seriously injured or lose my eye sight, is not acceptable for me with 'probably not'. I'd prefer to be more in the category of 'most definitely not', which I'd put actual stated 'oxygen' regulators and equipment in.

An important thing for people to consider when deciding on which way to go an then how to use their setup, would be the modes of ignition with Oxygen:

• Most common being adiabatic compression (ie. opening a valve quickly into a system with consderable back pressure or a closed valve)
  Open valves slowly, preferably with the downstream system 'open', so into an airstone with your flowmeter at normal set pressure should be OK to avoid heat generation from adiabatic compression.
• Incompatible materials - brass is quite oxygen compatible, teflon is good, polymers are NOT, granted the aforementioned are not likely to be used on our setups, likely Nylon or HDPE are. I'd probably go for Nylon, HDPE would be best to be cleaned with an oxygen degreaser. There is a good detergent I forget the name of but something 'green apple' rings a bell - anyone know what I am thinking of?
• Particle impingement - anything entrained in the gas flow impacting a hardnened surface inside could cause ignition, so cleanliness is as important as sanitation is for the rest of our brewing process to ensure no foregin particles enter.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Don't rattle the cages brewers!
[edit] on busting the balls of bottled gas suppliers.

I was going to post how home brewers might raise the bar on bottled O2 regulations. ...........oh.
Then back to earth you have.

 

[MHB]

Has anyone considered or even bat an eyelid that the disposable oxygen cylinders & the regulators are not food grade?
Is there actually a difference? The only true way to supply your wort with food grade oxygen if there is a difference, is to get the proper equipment which is a bit more expensive.

Crusty - Me, yes I got a certification that the regulator, the cylinders and the oxygen in them were all food grade/safe even the line was food grade beer line, and all the parts complied with an AU or EU standard... Call it Duty of Care!

I want manufactures certifications that the product I choose are safe


Mark

 

[Zorco]

So, the picture I'm starting to get with the disposable gear, if there is no Australian Standard, is that European normalised standards are the level adopted. And widely accepted in my industry so seemingly gas too.

Crusty, maybe your little reg and gauge is BS, or BS EN compliant. If you posted that already, soz, I'll look again in the morning.

 

[Crusty]

So, the picture I'm starting to get with the disposable gear, if there is no Australian Standard, is that European normalised standards are the level adopted. And widely accepted in my industry so seemingly gas too.

Crusty, maybe your little reg and gauge is BS, or BS EN compliant. If you posted that already, soz, I'll look again in the morning.

I'll have to have a look.

 

[Benn]

From the Dynaweld website http://www.dynaweld.com.au/
MSDS for the 'BossGas 1 litre oxygen disposable gas bottle'
http://www.dynaweld.com.au//img/cms/MSDS/600037.pdf
Good basic information for those who wish to learn more about safe storage/handling etc. of O2
Interesting that it lists Medical Applications as one of several uses.

 

[MHB]

The 600044 regulator is listed by its manufacturer as a CO2, Argon Inert gas regulator. As posted previously see Post # 179...
The supplier of the regulator doesn't even stock O2. That the Regulator can be fitted to another manufacturers product doesn't mean it should be.
In the eBay link Crusty posted # 131 "Bob the Welder" as the supplier the regulator is listed as suitable for MIG TIG -


That the regulator isn't safe nor suitable for use with Oxygen has been repeated and demonstrated
I and others have spent a fair amount of time actually researching, looking for relevant standards and safety advisories.

Mark

 

[SBOB]

The supplier of the regulator doesn't even stock O2. That the Regulator can be fitted to another manufacturers product doesn't mean it should be.

sorry, but you're flat our wrong here..
If you took 1 minute to browse their rather massive catalogue on dynaweld.com.au you would see the page below

Disposable Gas Bottle Regulators
600044 - Bossweld Regulator with Gauge

1L Disposable Gas Bottles
600037 - 100% Oxygen

2.2L Disposable Gas Bottles
600036 - 100% Oxygen


Want to find ANYWHERE in that listing (or the catalogue itself) which would indicate that the 'disposable gas bottle' regulator they list at the top of the page would not be suitable for ANY of their 'disposable gas bottles' they list below?