Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[Online Brewing Supplies]

I guess I assumed it would be ok because they did it on The Electric Brewery here

I'll see if I can lower the HERMS coil so it's on the bottom of the HLT and the elements poke through.

You could do away with about half the coil length as I cant see you needing that much, this would lower the coil by half height ?
Nev

 

[cat007]

That wouldn't really lower the coil. The coil is as high as it is because the elements are in the way and I assumed the best way to do it was to put the HERMS coil just above the elements. But perhaps I should put a couple of coils under the elements and poke the elements through one of the coils. That'd be the easiest way to utilise the lowest parts of the HLT?

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

That wouldn't really lower the coil. The coil is as high as it is because the elements are in the way and I assumed the best way to do it was to put the HERMS coil just above the elements. But perhaps I should put a couple of coils under the elements and poke the elements through one of the coils. That'd be the easiest way to utilise the lowest parts of the HLT?

Yes do what ever it takes to get the best water contact with the least volume.
Nev

 

[cat007]

Well I was able to lower the herms coil about 2.5cm and it's sitting just above the elements. There's about 7-8 coils covered over with water in the HLT.

The problem now is, and I can't figure out why, the HLT is up to temp, 65C, but the MLT and the water coming out of the herms coil is hovering around the 62-63C and has been for the best part of 30 minutes. I would've thought 2-3C in lost temp between the herms coil, pump and mash tun is a bit much?
The MLT isn't insulated - so that's probably not helping - but I would've thought I'd be a degree off at most....

Should I be pushing the water through the HERMS coil, or pulling from it? At the moment out of the MLT it goes into the pump, then out of the pump and into the top of the HERMS coil, then out at the bottom of the HERMS coil and into the top of the MLT.

 

[hsb]

Pump up so you know it's full of liquid.

 

[cat007]

Yep just tried that. 20 mins later and it's still hovering around 62-63C with the hlt at 65.

Maybe I need to cover more coils. I would've thought 8 would be enough.... They're about 28cm in diameter.

 

[dent]

Why bother trying? There will always be a temperature offset. The control should be attached to the outlet temperature, and your HLT should run at whatever duty cycle is required to reach the setpoint at the outlet point.

 

[hsb]

More coils out of water is further for the liquid to travel and cool so makes sense.
I only measure my Mash Tun and (small, fully submerged) HEX out temperatures and there's still always a lag between them.
I don't care what temperature the HEX water is, you could just add a splash of cold before sparging if the HLT ends up too far over to use for your sparge, no big deal.

 

[V-Dawg]

Good thread. I've procrastinated for a while on my HERMS build and this should be the motivation I need to get it done. I have most of the components now. PIDs, pump, bench, false bottom etc.
Just need to:

1: build the HE. Have one of those 8L wine esky cylinder things.
2: build electronics box and install PIDS and elements.
3: upgrade my wiring back to the fuse box. I have a 3.5k element for the HLT. Have been told my 10amp line wont be able to handle it plus fermenting fridges, garage TV etc.
4: Assemble it all

Getting some help with the electrical stuff as I've got no idea.

Can you wise HERMSmen have a look at my diagram and critique? Looks sound enough to me.

BTW - I do remember reading somewhere that people had issues using a SS braid as a manifold with a HERMS or RIMS. They ended up crushing apparently.

Cheers
Polar

Hi Polar

I have not read through the whole thread but I saw your design here which matches mine. Did you end up building it this way, whats your experience with the setup?
Also I am not sure re switching between the 2 2kw element or enabling 2 top run simultaneously - would like to avoid 10amp vs 20amp issue... How did you end up building that aspect?

Cheers

 

[Grainer]

Ok im up for building mark 1 Herm-it vessel... 1st agenda is an element should I go 2200 watt or would a 2400 watt element get better ramping times etc...???

 

[Grainer]

Ohh and run the element in the middle of the coil rather than at the base of the coil??

 

[Yob]

Ok im up for building mark 1 Herm-it vessel... 1st agenda is an element should I go 2200 watt or would a 2400 watt element get better ramping times etc...???

It goes up to 11

 

[QldKev]

Ok im up for building mark 1 Herm-it vessel... 1st agenda is an element should I go 2200 watt or would a 2400 watt element get better ramping times etc...???

Have a look on my web site, qldkev.net. There is a water heating calculator. You punch in how many litres of water, the watts, and then the amount of tempeture change, ie 78c to 100c = 22c change. It will give you a time to get there. Then you can compare the 2 element sizes.

As an example
32L of water
From 78 to 100c boil = 22 diff

2200w = 22 mins
2400w = 20 mins

Ohh and run the element in the middle of the coil rather than at the base of the coil??

Heat rises, so the bottom I would think is best.

 

[nala]

Just wanted to ask and guage whether there would be much interest from the HERMies AHBers out there in having a dedicated HERMS thread where we can discuss our systems, procedures, set ups, theories, problems and solutions without the clouding banter that seems to creep into nearly every thread. I'm probably more guilty than some for that. Anyway before starting the thread I thought it wise to maybe open the floor to maybe set down some rules of the thread as well so we can get what we want out of it.

I suggest:

• To stay on topic where reasonable (a little friendly banter is ok)
• Purely on procedures, techniques, brewing techniques, equipment, technology and set ups.
• Talk on recipes and results from HERMS systems
• Photo's, drawings, scribbles of gear and set up is a must.
• No trolling lets keep it straight, debate well, deal with facts and remain focused. Difference of opinion is more than acceptable. Calling someone out for a shooting and pissing contest isn't.
• Advanced brewing techniques using HERMS.
• Beginner advice on setting HERMS systems up.
• The thread will be actively Moderated to keep it on topic.

Now this isn't an elitist thread ok. So please don't start banging that one out guys. It is however for those in the HERMS world of brewing. We don't bash on much about our systems etc as mentioned above. But it will be a place where those doing HERMS can advance and share their knowledge.


Cheers

Chappo

I have read chapter and verse on this topic and was so encouraged that I have hopefully invested in a good brewing system,
however my early attempts are not encouraging.
In order to get a feel as to how the system works I decided to do a 'dry run' so to speak, that is running the system without grain.
My strike water for the trial was 20 litres, I switched on and was quite impressed with the temperature rise and the controller going through it,s various steps.....initially I was using a brown pump and recirculating at a measured 4 litres per minute, did the job nicely.
Now...with confidence, I decided to do a brew using a 5 stage mash.
Doughed in, pumping very slowly, discovered not enough wort going through the mash to pump at 4 litres per minute so partly closed the ball valve, the HEX was supplying wort at the set temperature, however when I checked the grain bed temperature I found that this was 6 degrees lower than the set mash temperature.
I was disappointed at this but never say die I carried on, took what seemed to be ages to get to mashout I have fermented the wort that I produced but am not really happy with the system and am looking for solutions to these and hopefully some HERMS expert can put me right.
To give an indication of what equipment I employ for my general brewing this is it :
a. 2 roller grain mill
b. Mill gap 1.3 mm
c. 12" diameter false bottom
d. 20 litres per minute pump...upgraded from brown pump.
e. HERMIT controller
f. Various s/s disconnects.
g. 1/2 inside diameter tubing

The answers that I am hoping that someone can provide are :
a. How to get the flow rate through the mash....have tried various mill gaps, makes no difference.
b. Has anyone measured the variation in mash temperatures, I get a 6 degree variation
c. Does anyone agitate the mash or stir the mash in order to get the flow.
I invested in the HERMS system because having read this topic I felt that nobody had any problems, I am just wondering how many brewers have the same problems as me and either are not aware of them or totally disregard them,after all I can brew good beer with a single infusion mash and have now completed my 73rd all grain brew with single infusion, I was hoping to make some progression with the HERMS and further enhance my skills.



Just a couple of pictures to show where I am at....sorry no bling !

 

[Khellendros13]

I had issues getting the flow through to my brown pump as well - however every brew before the HERM-IT I have had to suck on the mash tun hose outlet to get a flow. I know my current mash tun is flawed (even with a false bottom) but will be changing it completely soon.

Once I did get flow...the brown pump was clogged with a few bits of grain, stopping it from pumping. Cleaned it out, and manually recirculated until mostly clear, then hooked the pump back up. Perfect after that, and dumped to the kettle via the HEX output.

What pump do you have now? Have you checked to see if it has clogged with any grain?

I eyeballed my mill settings until I got a crush I was happy with. Similar thickness to a credit card. Grain sets very softly and once the first bits of grain are through, recirculates without issue.

I didn't bother with measuring grain bed temp, maybe I should have, but from what I have read it doesn't really matter with HERMS. It will always lag behind the HEX output, just a matter of howmuch/how long for. Maybe you have a longer lag/temp difference because of metal vs cooler? Step mashing would mean the grain bed will most likely not catch the HEX output, as it is ramping every 5-10 mins?

I wouldn't stir during the mash, that is what a recirculating HERMS is for. You will just end up with more grain through the pump.

Were you gravity feeding the pump?

 

[dent]

The answers that I am hoping that someone can provide are :
a. How to get the flow rate through the mash....have tried various mill gaps, makes no difference.
b. Has anyone measured the variation in mash temperatures, I get a 6 degree variation
c. Does anyone agitate the mash or stir the mash in order to get the flow.

Yeah that sounds pretty crappy. Last time I checked (long ago) I get about 1.5 degree difference between the mash temperature and the outgoing HX temp. This will vary depending whether you are trying to ramp up the temperature at the time or whatever.

I find that the weight of the grain on the screen/whatever seems to be a critical thing as to whether the grain will jam up the flow or not. I've seen a full slotted false bottom jam up, while a crappy little ring of braid will flow nicely even with crap like oats and rice in the grist. Once difference seems to be the ratio of open/closed area that the weight of the grain rests upon. Given the example of a dome shaped false bottom, I'm coming to the conclusion lately that a dome smaller than the base of your mash tun is much better than one that covers the entire base - the smaller one has closed area on the sides. I'm still working on the physics of this situation to determine why it is so.

I would avoid stirring when the pump is running if possible. In delicately balanced (on the edge of jamming up) systems like yours it will often make the blockage worse.

Basically your root problem is insufficient flow, we need to look at ways to improve it.

 

[Crusty]

I have read chapter and verse on this topic and was so encouraged that I have hopefully invested in a good brewing system,
however my early attempts are not encouraging.
In order to get a feel as to how the system works I decided to do a 'dry run' so to speak, that is running the system without grain.
My strike water for the trial was 20 litres, I switched on and was quite impressed with the temperature rise and the controller going through it,s various steps.....initially I was using a brown pump and recirculating at a measured 4 litres per minute, did the job nicely.
Now...with confidence, I decided to do a brew using a 5 stage mash.
Doughed in, pumping very slowly, discovered not enough wort going through the mash to pump at 4 litres per minute so partly closed the ball valve, the HEX was supplying wort at the set temperature, however when I checked the grain bed temperature I found that this was 6 degrees lower than the set mash temperature.
I was disappointed at this but never say die I carried on, took what seemed to be ages to get to mashout I have fermented the wort that I produced but am not really happy with the system and am looking for solutions to these and hopefully some HERMS expert can put me right.
To give an indication of what equipment I employ for my general brewing this is it :
a. 2 roller grain mill
b. Mill gap 1.3 mm
c. 12" diameter false bottom
d. 20 litres per minute pump...upgraded from brown pump.
e. HERMIT controller
f. Various s/s disconnects.
g. 1/2 inside diameter tubing

The answers that I am hoping that someone can provide are :
a. How to get the flow rate through the mash....have tried various mill gaps, makes no difference.
b. Has anyone measured the variation in mash temperatures, I get a 6 degree variation
c. Does anyone agitate the mash or stir the mash in order to get the flow.
I invested in the HERMS system because having read this topic I felt that nobody had any problems, I am just wondering how many brewers have the same problems as me and either are not aware of them or totally disregard them,after all I can brew good beer with a single infusion mash and have now completed my 73rd all grain brew with single infusion, I was hoping to make some progression with the HERMS and further enhance my skills.

2013-08-21 09.55.22.jpg

2013-09-24 12.02.09.jpg

Just a couple of pictures to show where I am at....sorry no bling !

I was in exactly this position a year or two ago & was making great beer & decided to go for a Rims set up. My mash temp was controlled via a PID & a 2400 watt heat stick. I had quite a few problems with that particular set up, a lot to do with the design of the rig & not so much the equipment I was using.
I never stirred the mash whilst re-circulating. You are trying to create a filter bed of sorts & stirring it will just cloud things up & you won't achieve the filtering through the grain bed.
Forget about the lag in the grain bed against the hex outlet. The outlet temp is what you are aiming for.
I used as high as a 1.5mm gap on my mill & used 3.5lt / kg grain. I still encountered compacted grain beds & stuck sparges which pissed me off to no end. I ended up ditching the re-circulation idea in the end & went back to simplicity. I decided on BIAB in the urn. It's a great way to brew but it too has it's challenges with trying to accurately control your mash temp & with an exposed element on my urn, step mashes are almost out of the question so it leaves me little choice but to stick with single infusions.
I still have an Auber PID, ramp, soak, kiln model with SSR output & some switches & illuminated lights & may look at Herms down the track.......... h34r:
If there's one thing I hate about my process, it's the mash out. Constantly rousing the mash from rest to mash out temp is tedious & is a work out & a half.
I would also like to get a better hold on the 90min rest temp as well. I lose around 2-3deg in that 90mins but the majority of conversion takes place in that first 20-30 mins so not much would be lost there. It's kinda nice to set the temp you want & let the PID take control of it all & awesome watching it run through a 5 step mash but devastating noticing the re-circulation almost stop & realize your mash temp is punching above the 80deg mark.
Hang in there mate, you'll get it sorted & IMO, the herms is the way to go.

 

[dent]

Something that will often jam up your mash is running the pump at high speed when mashing in. My recommendation is to close the outlet of the pump off altogether when mashing in, give it your stir against dough balls, then slowly open the pump up to the minimum required flow. The time when you are most likely to get a stuck mash is at the start when it is relatively cold and you have a full load of undissolved starch and flour. And once it jams, you are screwed, because you don't have the flow to get the heat from the HX into the mash.

If you have a good fast pump like a gryphon ultimiser the most courageous thing to do would be to have that thing running full bore when mashing in.

 

[dago001]

Something that will often jam up your mash is running the pump at high speed when mashing in. My recommendation is to close the outlet of the pump off altogether when mashing in, give it your stir against dough balls, then slowly open the pump up to the minimum required flow. The time when you are most likely to get a stuck mash is at the start when it is relatively cold and you have a full load of undissolved starch and flour. And once it jams, you are screwed, because you don't have the flow to get the heat from the HX into the mash.

If you have a good fast pump like a gryphon ultimiser the most courageous thing to do would be to have that thing running full bore when mashing in.

An excellent piece of advice this. It is how I now run my herms after a series of stuck mashes.
Cheers
LB

 

[Fat Bastard]

I don't run my pump at all during mash in, which is normally at a 52c rest. Normally give it a good stir during this time and open it up for the sacc. rest ramp up. Never had a stuck mash yet.

Quick question, I'm building a brew stand at the moment, and have the option to either have the HLT at the same level as the MLT and kettle but not the HX, or have the HX next to the MLT and the HLT below. I've got enough pumps to do either, but I'm leaning towards having the HX as close as possible to the MLT to reduce heat losses.

anyonw have any thoughts on this?

cheers,

FB.