Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[AndrewQLD]

Nope eyesight is good. Quote taken out of context. IIRC Yardy already had the copper.

Chap Chap

Ah sorry about that Chap Chap, I thought it was a list for general use,

Ok then antains, you will also need 6-10 mt copper coil.

Andrew

 

[antains]

Maybe I'm blind but I can't see copper coil on that list 6-10mt would be good.

Andrew

For all my reading of this thread and how many times I mentally noted the coil I now hang my head in shame.

Thanks for nudging that

 

[quincy]

Watching this thread with interest.

Got me thinking about piecing together a temporary HE to guage the difference it makes before going full bore ahead with all the right gear.

I understand the additional uses of a march pump outside of the HE but for a quick mock up HE could I use an old washing machine pump??

Cheers
Q

 

[chappo1970]

Watching this thread with interest.

Got me thinking about piecing together a temporary HE to guage the difference it makes before going full bore ahead with all the right gear.

I understand the additional uses of a march pump outside of the HE but for a quick mock up HE could I use an old washing machine pump??

Cheers
Q

Quincy MD

PM either Sav or TidalPete and see if you can get along to one of their brew days both are HERMies and good brewers too boot.

Cheers

Chap Chap

 

[razz]

I don't see why not q, I used one for a year or two before I discovered March pumps. Don't remember putting 95-100 degree fluids through it, but I did use it for spargeing.

 

[quincy]

Quincy MD

PM either Sav or TidalPete and see if you can get along to one of their brew days both are HERMies and good brewers too boot.

Cheers

Chap Chap

Good idea. Seeing is believing

I don't see why not q, I used one for a year or two before I discovered March pumps. Don't remember putting 95-100 degree fluids through it, but I did use it for spargeing.

Thanks razz. I have an old washing machine that has a built in thermostat that alows a maximum water temp setting of 90 deg. I will use the pump with the HE to start with and maybe adapt it in other parts of the brewery over time.

Cheers
Q

 

[chappo1970]

Also seeing their rigs will give you ideas on how to set yours up without the stuff around factor.

 

[sav]

Savys HERMS pic .

 

[yardy]

Savys HERMS pic .

nice B)

got any performance specs for the chiller sav ?

thinking of getting one

cheers

Dave

 

[A3k]

Hi guys,
i've been improving my setup lately including a march pump and a 12m immersion chiller which i am also going to be using as a HERMs coil. I've made the coil so that it fits in my 15Lt pot.
I'm currently using a braided hose falsie, but will be upgrading to something better soon to reduce dead space.

It's all close to go and i was planning on using it in my next brew which i already have the ingredients... HOWEVER it's Tony's aussie wheat (~60% wheat). Should i wait to try the HERMs on a all Barley beer, hurry up and sort out a new falsie, or just suck it and see. I figure i'll probably have enough new problems to attend to, don't know if i need a stuck sparge due to the march pump adding to the stress of the day.

Cheers,
Al

 

[newguy]

A3k,

Can you get your hands on rice hulls? If you can, then I'd say go for it - virtually no risk. I don't have any issues with wheat producing a stuck runoff on my HERMS but I have a false bottom not a braided hose. However, I don't even use rice hulls.

 

[A3k]

A3k,

Can you get your hands on rice hulls? If you can, then I'd say go for it - virtually no risk. I don't have any issues with wheat producing a stuck runoff on my HERMS but I have a false bottom not a braided hose. However, I don't even use rice hulls.

Hi Newguy,
i've got some rice hulls, but not sure if it'll be enough. The braid works okay with rice hulls, but I've only done one wheat without. It was a nightmare lautering.

I reckon i'll try and get some more rice hulls and the new falsie before the next batch.

the only thing stopping me getting a new falsie is this. I have a crappy old esky as a mash tun. I'm toying up getting a new tun, but don't want to be limitted by the shape of the false bottom... Maybe i just need to bite the bullet and get a beerbelly falsie, or make something myself.

Cheers,
Al

 

[TidalPete]

My HERMES with the HE on the bottom behind the valve board.
Last recipe efficiency in the tun was 96.82% (According to BeerSmith) without any rice gulls needed for a Scottish Export 80\-
Not bad for a senile old bastard Andrew(Qld ). <_<


TP

 

[AndrewQLD]

My HERMES with the HE on the bottom behind the valve board.
Last recipe efficiency in the tun was 96.82% (According to BeerSmith) without any rice gulls needed for a Scottish Export 80\-
Not bad for a senile old bastard Andrew(Qld ). <_<
View attachment 34834

TP

Your a legend TP, and I'm looking forward to a drink and a chat mate.

Andrew

 

[Batz]

Chap Chap, If you can vaguely recall we were talking about motorised stirrers a while ago. I was specifically looking at putting one in the hlt.

I have a stirrer in my Hlt, it's a windscreen wiper motor. These would easly run a mash stirrer as well.

Batz

 

[bradsbrew]

I have a stirrer in my Hlt, it's a windscreen wiper motor. These would easly run a mash stirrer as well.

Batz

Batz, I put my new 2200w element into my HLT yesterday and used it for the first time last night and what I diid find is that the dial thermometer wasnt accurate until I stirred the water and thought maybe I should fix a stiirrer to the HLT. You have just answered my question. Off to the wreckers I guess.

Cheers Brad

 

[TidalPete]

I have a stirrer in my Hlt, it's a windscreen wiper motor. These would easly run a mash stirrer as well.

Batz

I could be forgiven for thinking that your stirrer was long gone Batz as I am not allowed near the brew shed anymore.
Is that coil still in your HLT or do you have a dedicated HE these days?
Your whole setup seems to be very top secret mate? :unsure:


TP

 

[Batz]

I could be forgiven for thinking that your stirrer was long gone Batz as I am not allowed near the brew shed anymore.
Is that coil still in your HLT or do you have a dedicated HE these days?
Your whole setup seems to be very top secret mate? :unsure:
View attachment 34838

TP

Hell that's going back old timer, stirrer is still the same and going strong. The coil is long gone, that was a complete failure.

Batz, I put my new 2200w element into my HLT yesterday and used it for the first time last night and what I diid find is that the dial thermometer wasnt accurate until I stirred the water and thought maybe I should fix a stiirrer to the HLT. You have just answered my question. Off to the wreckers I guess.

Cheers Brad

Got in one Brad



Cheers
Batz

 

[Franko]

I have to build the HERMS coil now for my brewery what length of copper pipe do you guys recommend for my 20 litre urn on the lower level of my brewery.
I was thinking of around 7 metres or so
Franko

 

[hockadays]

Batz, I put my new 2200w element into my HLT yesterday and used it for the first time last night and what I diid find is that the dial thermometer wasnt accurate until I stirred the water and thought maybe I should fix a stiirrer to the HLT. You have just answered my question. Off to the wreckers I guess.

Cheers Brad

I get around this problem by putting the outlet from the heat exchanger into the HLT and pumping the strike water back onto itself while heating up the rest of the system as well. I do this when theres approx 10degc left to heat in the HLT take about 10mins and everything is up to temp including the Herms as well as all the fittings etc. Makes my first ramp up quicker as well.

I also made my herms more effecient by reducing the amount of water in it and putting a piece of foam on top so there is no airspace as well. I seem to get about 0.7degc/min which is not great but is enough.

 

[TidalPete]

I have to build the HERMS coil now for my brewery what length of copper pipe do you guys recommend for my 20 litre urn on the lower level of my brewery.
I was thinking of around 7 metres or so
Franko

Franko,

I would seriously recommend that you use the smallest pot\cylinder possible for your HE. I use a 7 litre Woolies & have jammed 5.7 metres of copper coil into it although others have done better with the same sized pot by allowing the inlet\exit to enter the pot through the lid. :super:
If you still plan on using that 20 litre urn I would say to start at 18 metres & cram all you can into it.
A ss cover over your urn element can only be of help.

TP

 

[Franko]

Franko,

I would seriously recommend that you use the smallest pot\cylinder possible for your HE. I use a 7 litre Woolies & have jammed 5.7 metres of copper coil into it although others have done better with the same sized pot by allowing the inlet\exit to enter the pot through the lid. :super:
If you still plan on using that 20 litre urn I would say to start at 18 metres & cram all you can into it.
A ss cover over your urn element can only be of help.

TP

Thanks for that Pete,
I'll try to cram it full of copper coil.
It is electronically controlled and I am able to dial what temp I want going thru there it will have a thermocouple attached on the outlet

Franko

 

[Batz]

Franko,

I would seriously recommend that you use the smallest pot\cylinder possible for your HE. I use a 7 litre Woolies & have jammed 5.7 metres of copper coil into it although others have done better with the same sized pot by allowing the inlet\exit to enter the pot through the lid. :super:
If you still plan on using that 20 litre urn I would say to start at 18 metres & cram all you can into it.
A ss cover over your urn element can only be of help.

TP

Poppy cock !!

I use a 20lt urn mate, works a treat and have around 15m in that baby.
Changing temperature takes no time at all, but you don't loose temperature either when you begin pumping. Smaller vessels will quickly have a temperature loss until they pick up the temperature they loose from pumping a cool liquid through them.

Want some picks?

Otherwise I'll sell you a cheap 10lt urn for $20.00,that'll will do the job.

Batz

 

[bonj]

Wow Pete, that's extraordinary efficiency. I have been building a HERMS for over a year now... these things take time, eh Franko? Anyway, I'm now thinking that the pot I was given for it is probably too big... which is fortunate in a way, since it's the perfect size for my new cheese making kit... Anyway, I have been promised a replacement from a fantastic sneaky little s%&t brewer and I think with it, and my stainless probe ends coming from stirplates.com, I might finally get this thing going.

I'm really enjoying this thread... One of the most educational, informative threads in a long time.

 

[Gout]

What is the biggest problem in having a smaller coil - I only ask as i think i have only 8m in a 10Lt HE. I use a PID and it seems to ramp to temp (when i change it) very fast and it sits on temp very tightly. I guess it means it should ramp slower?, but i havnt had a problem so far.

I would like more copper in there but i just have not got around to it, and given its working so well - not sure i will

My current brew is the first without my HERMS for yrs (i was upgrading the control box) and its not as nice as my normal beer - i used a glass thermo and think its mashed higher as it seems sweet and too much body - that said it is younge but i am glad to have the HERMS back online

 

[Batz]

What is the biggest problem in having a smaller coil - I only ask as i think i have only 8m in a 10Lt HE. I use a PID and it seems to ramp to temp (when i change it) very fast and it sits on temp very tightly. I guess it means it should ramp slower?, but i havnt had a problem so far.

I would like more copper in there but i just have not got around to it, and given its working so well - not sure i will

My current brew is the first without my HERMS for yrs (i was upgrading the control box) and its not as nice as my normal beer - i used a glass thermo and think its mashed higher as it seems sweet and too much body - that said it is younge but i am glad to have the HERMS back online

So I'll say you have no problem Gout, if you like it, love it man B)

 

[Batz]

OK
I find ramping up is not a problem, and who cares if it takes two minutes longer? I find smaller vessels loose heat through conductivity quickly, then you have to make up this temperature before increasing it. You don't want that, you want temperatures on the rise not the fall.

I usually do a double (that's two different) brews when I do my brew day. The 20lts of herms water when reticulating the first sparge then goes in the HLT. That with the cold water then makes up my volume in the 50lt HLT and is about right for the mash-in of the second brew .
The urn is refilled and brought back to temperature to start again during the second mash.
If I told you what temperature I now mash in at you'll have a fit.

You wouldn't Pete as I know you do similar

Batz

 

[Batz]

I hope it's not off topic, if you want a 8 lt ( may be more of less) urn for a herms



Make an offer , it works well as does the thermostat.



Batz

 

[AndrewQLD]

Just to confirm and update a previous post I made regarding my HERMS capabilities.

Gregs came over today to do a quick Mild ale and look at my recirculation rates and times ect.
Here's what we found.
Single infusion mash @ 66c with 14 lt water and 2.6 kilo of grain, recirculated for 60 minutes via the herms, temp at the herms outlet was 66 throughout as was the grain bed, recirculation rate was measured @ 2.5lt per minute, at that rate the whole wort was being recirculated every <5 minutes.

At the sixty minute point the controller was set to 78 for the mash out and circulation continued at the same rate of 2.5 lt/m, temp started to rise slowly and sped up towards the end of the rise, the grain bed lagged by 2-3 throughout the rise until the wort exiting the herms reached 78 and within 2 minutes the grain bed was at the same temp as the wort exiting the herms, mash out step took 20 minutes.

I crush reasonably course and I used a 2 lt jug of rice hulls to open the grain bed and allow good even flow through the bed, at several stages throughout the mash we tested the compaction of the bed and found it to be quite loose and free, it wasn't what I would call a floating mash but it was not dense at all.

We had one major problem that I will iron out easily, due to this being a lighter ale 1.033 fg my efficiency suffered a little, instead on my usual 80% I had to put up with 95% and as such we diluted in the kettle and ended up with a little too much wort .

I have around 6 mt copper coil in a 12l insulated pot and a 2200w jug element. I'm fairly confident that I could recirc up to 3l/m if required but I don't see the need to do so.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I concur with using the smallest vessel you can for your HERMS vessel - I certainly had many issues with lack of speed in temp change and with overshoot when I used a larger HERMS vessel, smaller equaled better, and even smaller was better yet.

Physics wise it has to be faster to change temps with a smaller vessel. You have 20L in your heat ex and 30 in your mash tun, then to go up 5.. you have to raise the temp of 50L with a given heat source. You only have an 8L heat ex and you are only heating up 38L. Conductivity losses are solved by a little bit of insulation around the vessel.

Thats the reasoning I used to explain why I got significantly better results with smaller and smaller HERMS vessels. I think I'm not the only one.

That doesn't mean its a rule - obviously Batz is having no issues with a larger vessel, and if you are using your HERMS primarily for temperature stability rather than ramping.. then its a non-issue. But quite a few people seem to find that smaller HERMS vessels equal better performance. I'm one of them.