Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[newguy]

The system as a whole. Mash tun on left, HE in the middle, lauter tun on the right. Control unit up above the HE, pump below.



Closeup of a temperature sensor. Each sensor is smeared with heatsink compound and installed in a copper thermowell.

For more pictures, have a look at the pdf in the previous post.

Any questions, just ask.

 

[chappo1970]

Awesome post NewGuy! Thanks for sharing all that great information on your rig and other supporting info. Kudos to you

Chap Chap

 

[AndrewQLD]

Nice post indeed newguy, thanks for the reading, any chance you have a guide for your excel spread sheet?

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Whats the difference between moving the grain in the liquor and moving the liquor through the grain?

Happy to be corected but it all sounds the same to me

cheers

Not a lot really. Perhaps you are less likely to get dead spaces as a result of channeling, so the enzymes have access to all the grain, but its not like stirrers are perfect either.

Basically a HERMS or a RIMS is a way to distribute heat and enzymes evenly through a mash tun - and thats what a stirred mash tun is as well. RIMS or HERMS is pretty much a homebrewer compromise to give you what you get in a heated stirred mash tun + the added bonus of it also being your lauter tun and saving you a discrete re-circulation step (depending on your process I guess)

At a guess, I'd say you would eek maybe a tiny bit extra efficiency out of a fully stirred tun vs a re-circulating system, but probably only on the same order or less than the improvement you get from a re-circ system vs a static system. Just because of the sheer physicality of the stirring action for starch access purposes. Perhaps a bit faster conversion too??? Once again, not much diff and I am only really guessing.

I like your reverse pumping idea - not sure if it will work because I think a filter bed might form on the outside of your top drawing point and restrict the flow... but I reckon its probably doable if you are determined. Best solution would be a pump capable of transferring solids and to just pump the entire slurry. You'd have to pay some attention to the dynamic of the returning wort/slurry in either case, or you would get "piles" of grain that collected in eddies and calm spots and that would be the same as dead flow zones in a HERMS. I think you'd almost need to combine the reverse pumping with constant stirring - in which case you might as well just direct heat.........

A lot of these issues are solved by the notion of separate mash and lauter tuns. Agitation, conversion, stirring, heating etc all take place in one vessel - transfer to a separate vessel for re-circ and sparge. Its a hell of a lot easier to set up stirrers etc in a simple pot with direct heat than in a combined MLT with all sorts of crap hanging out of the bottom. Its not like you even need an "extra" pot -- all we re-circulating brewers have one of those anyway in our heat ex vessels. 4 is 4 - just an alternative arrangement.

 

[newguy]

Nice post indeed newguy, thanks for the reading, any chance you have a guide for your excel spread sheet?

It was an attempt to model the thermal behaviour of the system so that I could come up with a good 1st guess of the PID coefficients. P = proportional, I = integral, D = derivative.

The system properties are at the top left. Volume of water, grain, etc. along with heater power (watts), start temp (F), end (target) temp (F). I grew up using Celcius but all the homebrewing books were in F when I started, so that's what I use. My system takes data points once per second, so that's why the spreadsheet is set up the way it is.

Moving to the right are terms used in the calculations. At time 0, the temp is the start temp and the various terms in the PID calc are laid out from there. The overall gain must be limited because in my system, it can vary from 0 (off) to 63 (full power). If you read the pdf it is explained in detail why this is. So if the overall gain is >63, it is limited (clipped) to 63 since that's my maximum.

Moving down the table you can see how the temperature changes with time. By playing with the PID coefficients (the gains) at the left, you can see how the overall system response changes.

 

[chappo1970]

Been trawling thru old posts trying to find the name of the company here in Queensland that sells 2400-3600W immersion elements <_< . Like this http://www.helios.com.au/Bobbins/bobbins.html but not ceramic and not a bobbin. This type is about $500. Can anyone help?

Chap Chap

 

[Sully]

Been trawling thru old posts trying to find the name of the company here in Queensland that sells 2400-3600W immersion elements <_< . Like this http://www.helios.com.au/Bobbins/bobbins.html but not ceramic and not a bobbin. This type is about $500. Can anyone help?

Chap Chap

Stokes Appliance Parts??

 

[chappo1970]

Stokes Appliance Parts??

Thanks Sully

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Been trawling thru old posts trying to find the name of the company here in Queensland that sells 2400-3600W immersion elements <_< . Like this http://www.helios.com.au/Bobbins/bobbins.html but not ceramic and not a bobbin. This type is about $500. Can anyone help?

Chap Chap

jjeffrey recently converted to RIMS and got a custom 2400W low density element made - I seem to recall it being less than $500

Heres the thread

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...c=39523&hl=

TB

 

[Tony]

Swishing action? :lol:

Chappo's next mash Tun upgrade

 

[Sully]

Thanks Sully

Actually its this one I was thinking of - same company different branch - my bad


Stokes Synertec



But these guys may be worth looking at as well

Cynebar

Thermal Electric




No Affiliation yada yada

 

[antains]

Just wanted to ask and guage whether there would be much interest from the HERMies AHBers out there in having a dedicated HERMS thread where we can discuss our systems, procedures, set ups, theories, problems and solutions without the clouding banter that seems to creep into nearly every thread. I'm probably more guilty than some for that. Anyway before starting the thread I thought it wise to maybe open the floor to maybe set down some rules of the thread as well so we can get what we want out of it.

Yes please.

( now to read the whole thread )

 

[Franko]

Has any body got or can give advice on a continuious mash stirrer. I think randyrob has one in his halfluck brewery? Is it worth considering guys?

I'm very seriously contemplating fabricating one up for the brewery as the next upgrade.

Chap Chap

Hey Chap Chap

Hogan has a motorised mash tun and has a thread on it Here

Franko

 

[MattC]

Gee 6 pages since monday?? Are you sure a dedicated thread will be enough to contain all this info?? Possibly a dedicated forum, divided into threads based on specific HERMS issues

On a serious note, I have been doing single infusion mashes for 12 months and am getting a bit bored with the process. I am planning on building a rig soon incorporating a HERMS. This thread is EXCELLENT and the information provided in it is invaluable to someone looking at starting out such as myself, thanks guys.

Quick newbie question. The HERMS takes away the need to perform decoction mashes, step mashes (solely within the mash tun) or double infusion mashes. The water you add to the mash tun remains constant, the temp is changed by reciculating the mash water through the HE?? is that correct or am I way off??

Cheers

P.S. Happy anniversary chappo (12 months since he joined the forum and only 4692 posts) :blink:

 

[reVoxAHB]

Quick newbie question. The HERMS takes away the need to perform decoction mashes, step mashes (solely within the mash tun) or double infusion mashes. The water you add to the mash tun remains constant, the temp is changed by reciculating the mash water through the HE?? is that correct or am I way off??

Nope. Pretty much spot on.

reVox

 

[RdeVjun]

On a serious note, I have been doing single infusion mashes for 12 months and am getting a bit bored with the process.

That I can relate to Matt. I've challenged myself to do lots of 100% base malt batches to get more familiar with base malt characteristics, try other techniques (eg. decoction, caramelising wort, mash temp effects) and also see just how far 100% base grist can be pushed. If your HERMS doesn't get up and away soon enough, perhaps give this sort of thing a whirl to keep the mojo happening?

Quick newbie question. The HERMS takes away the need to perform decoction mashes, step mashes (solely within the mash tun) or double infusion mashes. The water you add to the mash tun remains constant, the temp is changed by reciculating the mash water through the HE?? is that correct or am I way off??

I don't know so much about the latter as I'm just a lazy BIABer, but I can't see how HERMS could completely replace decoction, certainly as far as flavour profile goes. Stepped temperature profile achieved with decoctions certainly can be replaced by HERMS, but AFAIK, not the flavour effects.
BTW, I've tried to replicate the decoction flavour with spec malts (melanoidin, aromatic, various crystals and Cara*s etc.) and so far they just haven't quite cut the mustard, nowadays I note the flavours are different, not better or worse just different. Oh, and a decoction smells pretty darned divine too!

 

[MattC]

Im keen to discuss this some more, but rather than continue this discussion on this thread, I have posted a new one here...

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...mp;#entry582325

Cheers

 

[antains]

Love your system Yardy! Been good seeing you inch that together over Christmas.

I have to agree with Gregs you are 9/10th there you have the big bit! The bloody pump.

Ok shopping list and rough pricing.

Pot 11lt BigW $15
Cheapo Jug for element $12
Junction box including some electrical odds and ends $20
TempMate or PID say $75
Bit more plumbing but I bet my cotton socks you already have the bits after your build just laying around.
A waterproof housing control box about $20 for jaycar
Old/new extension lead that is still sound. (Awww honey I cut the extension cord by accident. I'll have to get a new one but not to worry I can use it again in the brewery so it's not a complete waste)
So say less than $150

Have I left anything out guys?

Ball valve and some hoses.

Chap Chap

My brain is a mush-puddle.

This has been a great thread. I am a long way off from doing this, because I'm going to slowly accumulate the components.

So far, I'm three 50L kegs in and two MM thermometres. Chappo's shopping list is going to be a great indicator of what else I need.

But is there more? (1. I know that's like asking how long is a piece of string, especially considering all of the different set-ups here. 2. I have searched and I keep failing to find a clear list - which I need because I'm fairly time-poor and easily distracted).

Ant.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Maybe I'm blind but I can't see copper coil on that list 6-10mt would be good.

Andrew

 

[chappo1970]

Maybe I'm blind but I can't see copper coil on that list 6-10mt would be good.

Andrew

Nope eyesight is good. Quote taken out of context. IIRC Yardy already had the copper.

Chap Chap