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Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

Discussion in 'Gear and Equipment' started by chappo1970, 11/1/10.

 

  1. newguy

    To err is human, to arrr is pirate

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    Posted 12/1/10
    photo_1.JPG

    The system as a whole. Mash tun on left, HE in the middle, lauter tun on the right. Control unit up above the HE, pump below.

    temp_sensor_closeup.JPG

    Closeup of a temperature sensor. Each sensor is smeared with heatsink compound and installed in a copper thermowell.

    For more pictures, have a look at the pdf in the previous post.

    Any questions, just ask.
     
  2. chappo1970

    Must remember to logout of AHB on Brew Days

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    Posted 12/1/10
    Awesome post NewGuy! Thanks for sharing all that great information on your rig and other supporting info. Kudos to you :)

    Chap Chap
     
  3. AndrewQLD

    RED ON WHITE IPA

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    Posted 12/1/10
    Nice post indeed newguy, thanks for the reading, any chance you have a guide for your excel spread sheet?

    Cheers
    Andrew
     
  4. Thirsty Boy

    ICB - tight shorts and poor attitude. Fuck yeah!

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    Posted 12/1/10
    Not a lot really. Perhaps you are less likely to get dead spaces as a result of channeling, so the enzymes have access to all the grain, but its not like stirrers are perfect either.

    Basically a HERMS or a RIMS is a way to distribute heat and enzymes evenly through a mash tun - and thats what a stirred mash tun is as well. RIMS or HERMS is pretty much a homebrewer compromise to give you what you get in a heated stirred mash tun + the added bonus of it also being your lauter tun and saving you a discrete re-circulation step (depending on your process I guess)

    At a guess, I'd say you would eek maybe a tiny bit extra efficiency out of a fully stirred tun vs a re-circulating system, but probably only on the same order or less than the improvement you get from a re-circ system vs a static system. Just because of the sheer physicality of the stirring action for starch access purposes. Perhaps a bit faster conversion too??? Once again, not much diff and I am only really guessing.

    I like your reverse pumping idea - not sure if it will work because I think a filter bed might form on the outside of your top drawing point and restrict the flow... but I reckon its probably doable if you are determined. Best solution would be a pump capable of transferring solids and to just pump the entire slurry. You'd have to pay some attention to the dynamic of the returning wort/slurry in either case, or you would get "piles" of grain that collected in eddies and calm spots and that would be the same as dead flow zones in a HERMS. I think you'd almost need to combine the reverse pumping with constant stirring - in which case you might as well just direct heat.........

    A lot of these issues are solved by the notion of separate mash and lauter tuns. Agitation, conversion, stirring, heating etc all take place in one vessel - transfer to a separate vessel for re-circ and sparge. Its a hell of a lot easier to set up stirrers etc in a simple pot with direct heat than in a combined MLT with all sorts of crap hanging out of the bottom. Its not like you even need an "extra" pot -- all we re-circulating brewers have one of those anyway in our heat ex vessels. 4 is 4 - just an alternative arrangement.
     
  5. newguy

    To err is human, to arrr is pirate

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    Posted 12/1/10
    It was an attempt to model the thermal behaviour of the system so that I could come up with a good 1st guess of the PID coefficients. P = proportional, I = integral, D = derivative.

    The system properties are at the top left. Volume of water, grain, etc. along with heater power (watts), start temp (F), end (target) temp (F). I grew up using Celcius but all the homebrewing books were in F when I started, so that's what I use. My system takes data points once per second, so that's why the spreadsheet is set up the way it is.

    Moving to the right are terms used in the calculations. At time 0, the temp is the start temp and the various terms in the PID calc are laid out from there. The overall gain must be limited because in my system, it can vary from 0 (off) to 63 (full power). If you read the pdf it is explained in detail why this is. So if the overall gain is >63, it is limited (clipped) to 63 since that's my maximum.

    Moving down the table you can see how the temperature changes with time. By playing with the PID coefficients (the gains) at the left, you can see how the overall system response changes.
     
  6. chappo1970

    Must remember to logout of AHB on Brew Days

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    Posted 13/1/10
    Been trawling thru old posts trying to find the name of the company here in Queensland that sells 2400-3600W immersion elements <_< . Like this http://www.helios.com.au/Bobbins/bobbins.html but not ceramic and not a bobbin. This type is about $500. Can anyone help?

    Chap Chap
     
  7. Sully

    mmmmmm...... BEEEER

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    Posted 13/1/10
  8. chappo1970

    Must remember to logout of AHB on Brew Days

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    Posted 13/1/10
  9. Thirsty Boy

    ICB - tight shorts and poor attitude. Fuck yeah!

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    Posted 13/1/10
    jjeffrey recently converted to RIMS and got a custom 2400W low density element made - I seem to recall it being less than $500

    Heres the thread

    http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...c=39523&hl=

    TB
     
  10. Tony

    Quality over Quantity

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    Posted 13/1/10
    Chappo's next mash Tun upgrade :p

    washing_machine.jpg
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. Sully

    mmmmmm...... BEEEER

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    Posted 13/1/10


    Actually its this one I was thinking of - same company different branch - my bad


    Stokes Synertec



    But these guys may be worth looking at as well

    Cynebar

    Thermal Electric




    No Affiliation yada yada
     
  12. antains

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 13/1/10

    Yes please.

    ( now to read the whole thread )
     
  13. Franko

    Red Rocket Brewery

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    Posted 13/1/10
    Hey Chap Chap

    Hogan has a motorised mash tun and has a thread on it Here

    Franko
     
  14. MattC

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 13/1/10
    Gee 6 pages since monday?? Are you sure a dedicated thread will be enough to contain all this info?? Possibly a dedicated forum, divided into threads based on specific HERMS issues :p

    On a serious note, I have been doing single infusion mashes for 12 months and am getting a bit bored with the process. I am planning on building a rig soon incorporating a HERMS. This thread is EXCELLENT and the information provided in it is invaluable to someone looking at starting out such as myself, thanks guys.

    Quick newbie question. The HERMS takes away the need to perform decoction mashes, step mashes (solely within the mash tun) or double infusion mashes. The water you add to the mash tun remains constant, the temp is changed by reciculating the mash water through the HE?? is that correct or am I way off??

    Cheers

    P.S. Happy anniversary chappo (12 months since he joined the forum and only 4692 posts) :blink:
     
  15. reVoxAHB

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 13/1/10
    Nope. Pretty much spot on.

    reVox
     
  16. RdeVjun

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 14/1/10
    That I can relate to Matt. I've challenged myself to do lots of 100% base malt batches to get more familiar with base malt characteristics, try other techniques (eg. decoction, caramelising wort, mash temp effects) and also see just how far 100% base grist can be pushed. If your HERMS doesn't get up and away soon enough, perhaps give this sort of thing a whirl to keep the mojo happening?
    I don't know so much about the latter as I'm just a lazy BIABer, but I can't see how HERMS could completely replace decoction, certainly as far as flavour profile goes. Stepped temperature profile achieved with decoctions certainly can be replaced by HERMS, but AFAIK, not the flavour effects.
    BTW, I've tried to replicate the decoction flavour with spec malts (melanoidin, aromatic, various crystals and Cara*s etc.) and so far they just haven't quite cut the mustard, nowadays I note the flavours are different, not better or worse just different. Oh, and a decoction smells pretty darned divine too!
     
  17. MattC

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 14/1/10
  18. antains

    Well-Known Member

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    Posted 15/1/10

    :eek: My brain is a mush-puddle.

    This has been a great thread. I am a long way off from doing this, because I'm going to slowly accumulate the components.

    So far, I'm three 50L kegs in and two MM thermometres. Chappo's shopping list is going to be a great indicator of what else I need.

    But is there more? (1. I know that's like asking how long is a piece of string, especially considering all of the different set-ups here. 2. I have searched and I keep failing to find a clear list - which I need because I'm fairly time-poor and easily distracted).

    Ant.
     
  19. AndrewQLD

    RED ON WHITE IPA

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    Posted 15/1/10
    Maybe I'm blind but I can't see copper coil on that list 6-10mt would be good.

    Andrew
     
  20. chappo1970

    Must remember to logout of AHB on Brew Days

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    Posted 15/1/10
    Nope eyesight is good. Quote taken out of context. IIRC Yardy already had the copper.

    Chap Chap
     

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