Wild Yeast Problems - How you overcame

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Glad you're back at it Clinton! So scary I just looked over this thread and saw a post from me almost exactly a year ago sending my sympathies and now here I am battling a seemingly impossible to beat what I can only assume is a wild yeast problem myself! Any help would be great I started a thread here: http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/89700-help-weird-maybe-off-flavour/page-2
 
Hey Nizmoose!

After reading your thread there's a couple pieces of advice i may be able to offer that will hopefully help.

I have given up on dry yeast, especially us-05 as I found i always have a similar off flavour to every brew made with it (rehydrated or sprinkled straight on doesn't matter)

I now only use liquid yeast with a starter, boil 150 grams dry malt extract in an erlenmeyer flask on the stove for 10 mins in 1.5 litres of water, cool down, pitch yeast and leave for 24 hours swirling a couple times. Refrigerate for 2 hours to drop the yeast to the bottom of the flask, decant most of the liquid and pitch the yeast into the fermenter after shaking them back into suspension.

If you are using Plastic fermenters get a new one as the one you have may have a microscopic scratch allowing bacteria in.

When i moved to my new house i still had a couple of brews with the problem you describe - complete lack of hop flavour.

I got the guys at little creatures in Geelong to test my brew for me. Turns out i was over oxygenating with my pure oxygen tank, now i just shake the fermenter rigourosly for 45 seconds to a minute with great results.

I use a stainless steel brewbucket and use Pure Sodium percarbonate to clean with Star San to Sanitize. I find the pure sodium percarbonate works better than PBW and it's way cheaper.

Also i saw someone say on your thread to bleach anything metal, don't do this as it strips the protective coating on stainless steel. Sodum Bicarbonate + Star San.

Hope that helps man!
 
Hey Clinton, it's super that you're able to brew safely again. I know Chris at our club was of the opinion that your problem was caused by a persistent mould of some sort, which sounded possible and seems to fit with your description of your old house - what do you reckon? Was it a wild yeast, or just some kind of mould that was living in the walls of your house?
 
I want to say Mould and also to do with the bad water, when we were moving out i noticed the mould was coming through the wall and eating our cupboards!
 
Just finished reading through your whole debacle... Gotta say, my hat's off to ya. This would've driven me to the point of giving up (and crying and pulling my hair out.. and the rest of it).

Happy to see you're all good now and a happy man once again!

Happy Brewing!

Tony
 
clintonforster said:
Hi Guys,

It's been almost 2 years since i started having my problems, i never gave up and brewed at least once a week.

The house i was living in had terrible water from old piping, a rising damp and mould growing in the walls. I got rid of ALL my equipment. Moved house when the wife and i could finally afford it and bought all new gear.

I am now 5 brews in and everything is tasting amazing like the first time i started brewing. Thanks to everyone that tried to help me through these troubled times.

I'm the happiest guy in the world now that i can brew again.

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12804868_10156669527240640_6547565174004000425_n.jpg
Great news boss. Glad it's worked out, so disheartening when it doesn't.
Been there but not to that extent.
 
How to stop any infection.
Well its a no brainer. Put some serious effort into cleaning and sanitising ALL of your gear properly. Ive been brewing for over 8 years now and not had an infection once
 
Some very serious and thorough brewers have battled unwelcome microflora pist. It's not necessarily lazy sanitation that leads to infection.

I've never had a broken leg or cancer - doesn't mean if you do what I do, you'll be guaranteed event free.
 
pist, if you took the time to actually read through the thread you would note that cleaning all of your gear (even bleach/vinegar nuking), however thoroughly, is not sufficient if the offending organism (wild yeast or mould) is prevalent throughout your house/brewing area.

Also, your assertation that just because YOU haven't had any infections with YOUR cleaning/sanitising regimen, means that clintonforster isn't doing the right thing himself is just wrong. Your situation isn't applicable to his, so you not having an infection in your system is not relevant. Let's infect your house with a nasty mould or wild yeast, then we'll see how confident you are that your process is bulletproof.
 
Cheers Goat chop and Manticle,

I spent two years trying to figure this out brewing every week, i got advice from proffesional brewers and many home brewers, i talked to people that were 60 years old that had been brewing since they were 15 (yes 15) who had also never had an infection but they had mates that had experienced similar to me. I used every type of cleaner under the sun and bought new brewing equipment several times. I even did a split batch at a mates house, we fermented at our seperate houses both using a stainless steel brewbucket cleaned with PBW and sanitised with Star San. Mine ended up infected and his tasting amazing just like the first time i brewed it.

I'm not doing anything differently currently, in fact my cleaning process is way more relaxed than when i was having problems. i am just not in a house with terrible water and mould growing through the walls.

Prior to having these troubles i have to say I had the same attitude as Pist to an extent. Wouldn't wish it on anyone, had me really down many times.
 
Wow. I'm a new brewer and new to AHB but I just read through this whole thread out of interest. It was like a Hollywood movie complete with the happy ending! Well done in sticking it out for as long as you did because I sure as hell wouldn't have had the patience nor the finance to do it.
 
Too late for the OP, but here goes some advice anyway...

I had some issues with high rates of beer spoilage. The issue was what's sometimes referred to as "gusher bug" - an infection that eats up anything it can. The symptoms are an off flavour very early, kind of like clove, then as the beer ages, it becomes more medicinal, astringent, dry and way over carbonated. To the point that opening a bottle causes a fizzy geyser, like a Mentos in a Coke bottle. Like others, I battled this with various cleaning and sanitising regimes, but could not eliminate it. Even replaced all my equipment, to no positive results.

One day, on the spur of the moment, I decided I really didn't like the flooring in the kitchen and decided to rip up the old lino. What I found under that was some mould, a filthy old layer of another lino and under that a variety of floor coverings, ranging from asbestos sheets, chipboard, sandstone slab, hardwood floorboards and some kind of resin/bakelite impregnated woven material. What was going to be a quick job to replace some ugly lino turned out to be a major re-flooring of the kitchen. I pulled out everything I could, getting back to the floor boards and sandstone / concrete. Gave everything a good wash with sugar soap, then mopped it with a vinegar. Once dry, I sprayed with metho and then mopped with bleach. Then it was a couple of days of drying. During that time I noticed that the sandstone and concrete parts of the floor were wicking up the moisture from under the house and it became clear that this was always going to be a damp and mould problem, because moisture would be drawn from under the house and then trapped under the floor coverings. Since the floor was also uneven in that area, I got a few bags of floor leveler, mixed it up and poured it over the affected area. Once the leveler set and dried, I got some bathroom waterproofing membrane and painted two coats over the sandstone, the concrete, the leveler and a good 30-50cm of surrounding floorboards. For the rest of the floor, I used a PVA (as in PVA glue) floor sealer that you just paint on the floorboards. I then covered the treated floor with self-adhesive lino rectangles that are each manufactured to resemble a floor board. I also installed some extra vent bricks around the perimeter of the house and an electric fan with some ducting and a timer that runs for an hour in the morning and an hour in the afternoon, just to ventilate under the house and get any moisture out of there.

About two or three months after this, I cleaned all my existing equipment (the same gear I had issues with in the past) and decided to brew again. This time the results were just fine, no infection, no off flavours, spot on carbonation and beer that lasted for good 6 months without any "gusher bug" issues. No idea if it would have lasted any longer, it was too yum to resist ;-)

So, yes, the environment can be a big, big factor and fixing the problem can be a major job. It's usually the stuff you don't see. The floor is clean on the surface, but what's under it? The walls and ceilings are clean, but what's inside the cavities? Sometimes you just need to peel back the layers and inspect.
 
clintonforster said:
Hey Nizmoose!

After reading your thread there's a couple pieces of advice i may be able to offer that will hopefully help.

I have given up on dry yeast, especially us-05 as I found i always have a similar off flavour to every brew made with it (rehydrated or sprinkled straight on doesn't matter)

I now only use liquid yeast with a starter, boil 150 grams dry malt extract in an erlenmeyer flask on the stove for 10 mins in 1.5 litres of water, cool down, pitch yeast and leave for 24 hours swirling a couple times. Refrigerate for 2 hours to drop the yeast to the bottom of the flask, decant most of the liquid and pitch the yeast into the fermenter after shaking them back into suspension.

If you are using Plastic fermenters get a new one as the one you have may have a microscopic scratch allowing bacteria in.

When i moved to my new house i still had a couple of brews with the problem you describe - complete lack of hop flavour.

I got the guys at little creatures in Geelong to test my brew for me. Turns out i was over oxygenating with my pure oxygen tank, now i just shake the fermenter rigourosly for 45 seconds to a minute with great results.

I use a stainless steel brewbucket and use Pure Sodium percarbonate to clean with Star San to Sanitize. I find the pure sodium percarbonate works better than PBW and it's way cheaper.

Also i saw someone say on your thread to bleach anything metal, don't do this as it strips the protective coating on stainless steel. Sodum Bicarbonate + Star San.

Hope that helps man!
Sorry not to thank you for this sooner! Great info here, I do shake the **** out of my fermenters, worth a shot doing less of it given I have a 12L beer in a 20L bucket, I do clean with sodium percarbonate funnily enough, only switched to bleach to see if I had a super-bug which had become resistant to sodium percarbonate over time. I've never heard of the sodium bicarbonate + starsan, would you be able to shed some light on procedures and preparing it? Thanks again!
 
Careful with bleach or the pink powder. You need to work really hard to get the residual stench out. If you don't you will get off flavours in your beer.

If you are going to treat your gear because you suspect an infection that resists your usual procedures, I would recommend first cleaning your equipment with a solution of hot water and bleach (or pink powder), then rinsing with hot water and letting everything drain really well.

For the next part, it's best to work outside - sodium metabisulphite is nasty stuff and could give you an asthma attack if you inhale it or the generated fumes. Once drained, mix up some sodium metabisulphite with water and splash this solution around your equipment to ensure that every surface is covered. Tip out the liquid, no need to drain too well. Place everything in the fermenter and close it. Sit it outside, even in the sun, so it can get warm, for a couple of hours. Open, rinse well, drain well and let air dry. Store for a week or so.

Next time you want to use this equipment, clean it all with sodium percarbonate and rinse well. Smell it. You should not be able to detect any chlorine or sulphur smell. If you can, rinse with boiling water, drain and test again. At this stage, you should be good to use StarSan or equivalent and continue as normal.
 
Nizmoose said:
Sorry not to thank you for this sooner! Great info here, I do shake the **** out of my fermenters, worth a shot doing less of it given I have a 12L beer in a 20L bucket, I do clean with sodium percarbonate funnily enough, only switched to bleach to see if I had a super-bug which had become resistant to sodium percarbonate over time. I've never heard of the sodium bicarbonate + starsan, would you be able to shed some light on procedures and preparing it? Thanks again!
For Star san, after you've cleaned the fermenter with sodium percarb or your choice of cleaner and rinsed all the cleaner out - dilute 1.5 ml of star san per litre of water. you can either fill the fermenter and use the appropriate amount of star san, or fill a spray bottle and make sure you spray the whole inside of the fermenter. Star san is phosphoric acid based and is non rinse. It won't affect the flavour of your beer like bleach. When you use bleach as a sanitizer you need to rinse the **** out of your fermenter to get rid of it, and then what about bacteria in the water you rinsed with? With star san just spray or fill with the correct diluted amount, allow 1 to 2 mins contact time and drain. Then fill with beer.
 
clintonforster said:
For Star san, after you've cleaned the fermenter with sodium percarb or your choice of cleaner and rinsed all the cleaner out - dilute 1.5 ml of star san per litre of water. you can either fill the fermenter and use the appropriate amount of star san, or fill a spray bottle and make sure you spray the whole inside of the fermenter. Star san is phosphoric acid based and is non rinse. It won't affect the flavour of your beer like bleach. When you use bleach as a sanitizer you need to rinse the **** out of your fermenter to get rid of it, and then what about bacteria in the water you rinsed with? With star san just spray or fill with the correct diluted amount, allow 1 to 2 mins contact time and drain. Then fill with beer.
Sorry I completely misread your sentence, I thought you were making some weird combo of starsan and sodium bicarbonate haha
 
I don't have a wild yeast problem, but SWMBO is insisting we spring clean the house this weekend, so I'm thinking about giving the brew space (household kitchen) a really good disinfect.

Does anyone have any advice about what chemicals are safe to use on kitchen surfaces? What'll do the job properly? And how strong a mix of each should I make?

I've got plenty of Perc and also some Phosphoric No-rinse (plus geeral household cleaning stuff).
 
Be careful with undiluted phosphoric basex stuff - it can stain some surfaces.
If you have marble anywhere, keep anything acidic right away.

Hot sodium percarbonate is great for cleaning loads of stuff.
 
If you are going for a general spring (autumn) clean, do exactly that - clean rather than sanitise. Having clean workspace that doesn't have hospitable areas for bacteria or wild yeast is a lot more effective that sanitising filth.

Good scrub with any unscented or low scent cleaning product appropriate for the surface should do the trick. Sodium percarbonate happens to be a pretty good cleaning product, but sugar soap is good too, if you need to clean walls, floors and even ceilings.

Worry about sanitising on brew day.
 
pist said:
How to stop any infection.
Well its a no brainer. Put some serious effort into cleaning and sanitising ALL of your gear properly. Ive been brewing for over 8 years now and not had an infection once
What a **** thing to say. I've never in 50+ AG brews at 3 different places of residence had an infection either(had one as a teenager when i brewed kits) but i don't use that to beat down someone who is distraught and looking for assistance.

A little empathy for a fellow brewer please.
 
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