Wild Yeast Problems - How you overcame

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neal32 said:
What a **** thing to say. I've never in 50+ AG brews at 3 different places of residence had an infection either(had one as a teenager when i brewed kits) but i don't use that to beat down someone who is distraught and looking for assistance.
A little empathy for a fellow brewer please.
Yeah thats the thing I've been such a clean brewer doing cleaning and sanitation by the book and have produced nothing but clean beer after clean beer for two years, then all of a sudden 4 bad beers out of 5 haha
 
This is now a very old thread but I thought I'd revive it just this once - the Baron/my wife came back from a two day mushroom growing course in the countryside yesterday with some *very* interesting information about moulds. And I think she may have identified the culprit in these particularly bad cases of what are usually called 'killer yeasts'.

Seems that whereas you can kill a normal nasty yeast by heating it up to around 70 degrees C, you can't do this with mould.

Trichodermas are particularly virulent; they're everywhere in nature but if they manage to get a hold in a particular environment they won't let go and won't let other creatures grow.

To kill a mould like this, you have to have a heat of around 120 degrees C. This is pretty much impossible in a normal kitchen; you can achieve it with a pressure cooker but of course you can't pressure cook your whole kitchen.

The Baron also says that the way to deter these moulds (when you, for instance, want to culture some mushrooms) is by sterilising every surface and wiping stuff constantly with metho (ie, pure alcohol).

So there you go. I know at one of our club meetings I did overhear Clinton (who started this thread) talking to another one of our members who suggested it was probably a problem due to mould. It now seems to me quite likely that this is the case.

So, maybe this will help brewers in the future with this problem - basically - watch out for that mould, folks!
 
TimT said:
This is now a very old thread but I thought I'd revive it just this once - the Baron/my wife came back from a two day mushroom growing course in the countryside yesterday with some *very* interesting information about moulds. And I think she may have identified the culprit in these particularly bad cases of what are usually called 'killer yeasts'.

Seems that whereas you can kill a normal nasty yeast by heating it up to around 70 degrees C, you can't do this with mould.

Trichodermas are particularly virulent; they're everywhere in nature but if they manage to get a hold in a particular environment they won't let go and won't let other creatures grow.

To kill a mould like this, you have to have a heat of around 120 degrees C. This is pretty much impossible in a normal kitchen; you can achieve it with a pressure cooker but of course you can't pressure cook your whole kitchen.

The Baron also says that the way to deter these moulds (when you, for instance, want to culture some mushrooms) is by sterilising every surface and wiping stuff constantly with metho (ie, pure alcohol).

So there you go. I know at one of our club meetings I did overhear Clinton (who started this thread) talking to another one of our members who suggested it was probably a problem due to mould. It now seems to me quite likely that this is the case.

So, maybe this will help brewers in the future with this problem - basically - watch out for that mould, folks!
I think this is a great point
I had a gusher problem for a while, it disappeared for a little while after bleach bombing my entire brewery, then it resurfaced
I then gave everything in my brewery a wipe/spray down with the fores and heads from a mate's reflux still
Haven't had any problems since :)
 
I had 2 infected batches in quick succession a few months back.

I had a non-infected batch made between the 2 infected ones. After checking back through my records and wondering wtf had happened, I'm fairly sure I narrowed it down to 1 particular fermenter.

It was most likely an infection around the tap rather than a scratch of the inside of the fermenter. I'd simply never bothered to take the taps apart and give them a proper clean. Close to 100 batches (spread across a few fermenters) without any problems, but I guess now I've learned my lesson. (Now I've decided to try a snap tap instead of the standard plastic taps, because they're easier to take apart. Also hoping to eventually switch to all stainless fermenters).

Anyway, 2 full batches went down the drain - actually one of my mates was happy to drink a fair few of those infected bottles :blink: and he's still alive ... - but I played it safe and ditched the fermenter & tap that I suspected was the problem. No issues in the the 4 batches I've tasted since (fingers crossed).

EDIT: Those batches were bottled in both PET and glass (seemed fine at bottling). The first sign of infection was extremely tight PET bottles a week later. When I went to open an un-refrigerated bottle to check it out it gushed everywhere (all over me, all over the kitchen, even to the ceiling!). I chilled the rest of the bottles, but it was still a nightmare drain pouring those bottles (including a few in glass that I suppose were in big danger of exploding), too many of them sprayed all over the kitchen.
 
I just opened the shed door to a puddle of Choc Stout I've had sitting in a cube for the last few weeks :( .
It had managed to get past the lid, and went under the cupboards, chairs, boxes, almost out the door. Carefully removed it to the garden before gently easing the lid. Crazy amount of pressure in it, and it hissed at me for ages before I could take the lid right off.
I've brewed two batches since this and they're cubed, so I'm hoping it was the cube.
 
Interesting about the mold, I should probably share my wild yeast story...

In Adelaide (hot and very dry) I never had a problem with wild yeast etc.

Once I moved to Canberra I started getting wild yeast in my beer at bottling. One of them exploded with the neck of the bottle with cap still attached shooting past my left ear and going through a tempered glass sliding window, which slowly tinkled into a thousand tiny pieces while I was still standing there shocked.

I eventually found the bottle neck on the other side of the garden, it had shot past my head, destroyed the tempered glass window, ricocheted back past my head and hit the wall of the neighbors house.

Using my HLT lid as a shield and wearing oven mits I gingerly placed all the other bottles into my HLT where they continued to explode for the next few days. My HLT is 4 mm aluminium and it now has several dents in it from the exploding beer bottles inside.

After reading Markbeers comments about starsan not being effective against yeast I started cleaning/sterilizing everything (inc bottles) with elcheapo hypochlorite domestic cleaner bleach and bottling in the kitchen. problem went away.

My theory was it was wild yeast in the garden/outoors (bottling outdoors in Adelaide was never a problem, likely due to the low humidity).

I now clean and sanitize with only hypochlorite and soak fermenters with sodium percarbonate and rinse with hypochlorite. Of course I rinse well after. I do wild brews and don't get any cross contamination even using the same equipment.

I now keg inside under a C02 blanket.

I only use starsan if it has already been cleaned with hypochlorite and I just want to give it a quick no rinse before using.
 
Trichoderma is relatively easy to kill with mild heat and ammonia. A quaternary ammonium compound based cleaner (known as a QAC or a quat) is definitely worth a shot if you suspect ground based mould is part of the problem.
 
Lyrebird_Cycles said:
Trichoderma is relatively easy to kill with mild heat and ammonia. A quaternary ammonium compound based cleaner (known as a QAC or a quat) is definitely worth a shot if you suspect ground based mould is part of the problem.
Where would one purchase said 'QAC'?
 
Skimmed this thread and noticed the comments about starsan not being effective on yeast

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JC9n50RdVo
 
I think I've posted this article up somewhere here before. Black mould growing in your house won't be killed by bleach. It just changes its colour. The good doctor a "mould expert" recommends vinegar solutions. Interesting read.
 
Interesting.... so are plastic FV's considered porous?
 
Matplat said:
Interesting.... so are plastic FV's considered porous?
To quote a post I read by a respected member on another forum - discussion was around being able to sanitise plastic fermenters that have had brett, lacto, pedio etc but it's a fitting answer nonetheless I think.

Well, this isn't a black and white question. It's a question of odds, and many variables that affect those odds. Are your chances of getting a cross contamination higher when using plastic over glass and stainless? Without a doubt, yes. Normally people blame this on microscopic scratches in the plastic. However, I've also read at least one wine study that actually documented that it took longer to sanitize microorganisms off of plastic versus glass and stainless steel in a controlled experiment (I will have to revisit the study to see why; I believe they referenced other studies for that information). Also, I am not sure if the study cleaned before sanitizing, so I have to re-read that.

That doesn't mean that you can't sanitize plastic fermenters that have been exposed to a mixed culture fermentation. I need to read more into this, but it looks like if you do long soaks of first a cleaning agent (PBW) and then a 5 minute soak in sanitizer (Starsan), you should kill everything unless your plastic has a lot of scratches. Knowing if your plastic has a lot of microscopic scratches is, well, hard without a microscope unless you can see the scratches, at which point those scratches are no longer "microscopic". I can't imagine that any plastic would be 100% free of this. The one exception might be unless it was brand new. That all said, I have fermented at least two clean beers in plastic that have once had my sour culture in them, and haven't tasted a contamination. There might have been a contamination if I were to send the beer into a lab, but since I never tasted anything wrong, I don't care. On one of the beers, it was heavily hopped, thus most likely killing any lactic acid bacteria. It was also a very short fermentation (under 2 weeks), and then moved to a keg where it was kept cold (a keg that has held many sour beers, in fact). The cold would have helped minimize the impact of the contamination if there was one in my beer.

When talking about cross contamination, there are two worlds: the homebrew world which tends to get it's information second hand from the commercial brewing world or anecdotally from experience or the experience of other homebrewers, and the commercial brewing world. In the homebrewing world, contaminations often go unnoticed, which might be likely in my case. God only knows what variable might play a role in one homebrewer having a contamination issue versus another homebrewer not having a contamination issue. For example, we don't give our clean beers time to sit around at room temperature and express whatever contamination might be in them. Sometimes our palates aren't trained enough to pick up on contaminations. On the other hand, when commercial beers get infected, that means product loss, money loss, beer sitting on shelves going bad, pissed off customers, etc. Therefore, commercial brewers take contamination much, much more seriously than homebrewers do, and rightfully so. There are textbooks written about it, $1000 courses available from UC Davis about it, and peoples' jobs dedicated to it in commercial breweries (this is called "Quality Control" or "Quality Analysis"). In the homebrewing world, we do our best to understand what is going on, but in the end it's just homebrew and no one is going to lose their job over it, if it even gets noticed at all.

That last paragraph was just a bit of streaming consciousness after having a nice cask strength whiskey, hopefully it has some sort of insight.
 
Is your brew bucket definitely sealed up correctly? I had a very similar issue for about 3 batches in a row, I would do the brew correctly and then about a week into fermentation, my fermenter started smelling like nail polish, eventually I found out that the fermenter I was using for these batches was not airtight at all and all sorts of nasties where making it into the beer including insects. After I replaced my fermenter I haven't had any problems since.
 
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