First Brew Fail... I think, help needed!

[snowgoose]

G'day brew team, chasing some advice if I can, I may have overlooked something

I've been buying bought-brewed beer for a while now and am very happy with my supplier, but I thought I should get serious and start having a proper crack myself. I have a few corny kegs and just got two 50l kegs, the 20-litre ones tend to run out too quickly haha.

Anyway, I bought a 60L Fermzilla with the intention of doing some of my own brews and filling up the 50L kegs. To play it safe (or what I thought would be), I bought two cans of Coopers Draught with 2 boxes of Cooper Brew enhancer to match. Followed instructions on the can and seemed to work okay. I added both cans, brew enhancers, and water and stirred. Then added the included yeast on top, sealed it up, added a little pressure, and set the spunding valve to 9psi.

I then quickly drew some brew to check SG, which measured 1.020, which seemed a bit low, but that's what it said and so I recorded it and then left beer to brew for the next 4 days. I then checked SG, measured 1.010. Left another 24 hours, same SG 1.010, left another and same 1.010. Instructions indicate after two checks on consecutive days if SG hasn't changed, then fermenting is done and so beer can be bottled or kegged.

I kegged it and then cold crashed it for a day and took a pour. Very cloudy and extremely bitter, with plenty of carbonation, but just looks and tastes like shit. Any ideas guys? I assume either that I didn't take enough care sanitising and it's gotten infected or for some reason fermenting simply stopped prematurely.... thoughts?

Many thanks in advance team, cheers Snowy!

 

[elmoMakesBeer]

Welcome. Based on your description that it “tastes like shit”, any number of things could be the issue. Infection is always a risk, but for a first brew in a new fermenter (which presumably arrived clean and with no trace of an old brew or anything else to infect) it’s probably less likely.
The idea of a cold crash is to get most of the trub (yeast, hops and other and unfermentable solids) to drop to the bottom, leaving the beer above relatively clean. You want to do this *before* kegging or bottling, so you leave the trub behind. You said you kegged then cold crashed, so most of the trub is probably sitting in the bottom of your keg, right where the pickup tube is. This will give you cloudy beer that tastes terrible. But if you let the keg sit still and cold for a couple of days, you might be able to pour a few beers until the crap is gone. The rest of your beer should be ok.
Other possible reasons for the beer not being to your taste could be:
- you haven’t let it carbonate properly. Brewing under some pressure at brewing temps isn’t likely to be enough for good carbonation. Give it a few days or a week on gas in the chilled keg to carbonate fully
- all beer benefits from sitting for at least a week (sometimes months) before drinking. Give it a bit of time before writing it off
- your temperature control is inadequate. The kit yeast isn’t the best yeast but it is pretty tolerant of high (or low) temperatures, so I suspect this isn’t the main issue here
- the beer just isn’t as good as that produced by your local friendly brewery
Your original gravity reading of 1.020 is unbelievable based on what you put in it (should be around 1.040 for most kits). This probably says much of the goop from the kit was sitting at the bottom of the fermenter. Don’t worry too much about that- the yeast will still find it.
Good luck and keep at it!

 

[snowgoose]

Welcome. Based on your description that it “tastes like shit”, any number of things could be the issue. Infection is always a risk, but for a first brew in a new fermenter (which presumably arrived clean and with no trace of an old brew or anything else to infect) it’s probably less likely.
The idea of a cold crash is to get most of the trub (yeast, hops and other and unfermentable solids) to drop to the bottom, leaving the beer above relatively clean. You want to do this *before* kegging or bottling, so you leave the trub behind. You said you kegged then cold crashed, so most of the trub is probably sitting in the bottom of your keg, right where the pickup tube is. This will give you cloudy beer that tastes terrible. But if you let the keg sit still and cold for a couple of days, you might be able to pour a few beers until the crap is gone. The rest of your beer should be ok.
Other possible reasons for the beer not being to your taste could be:
- you haven’t let it carbonate properly. Brewing under some pressure at brewing temps isn’t likely to be enough for good carbonation. Give it a few days or a week on gas in the chilled keg to carbonate fully
- all beer benefits from sitting for at least a week (sometimes months) before drinking. Give it a bit of time before writing it off
- your temperature control is inadequate. The kit yeast isn’t the best yeast but it is pretty tolerant of high (or low) temperatures, so I suspect this isn’t the main issue here
- the beer just isn’t as good as that produced by your local friendly brewery
Your original gravity reading of 1.020 is unbelievable based on what you put in it (should be around 1.040 for most kits). This probably says much of the goop from the kit was sitting at the bottom of the fermenter. Don’t worry too much about that- the yeast will still find it.
Good luck and keep at it!

What you say makes a lot of sense Elmo, it's actually cleared up a bit now and carbonated fine. I managed to keep most of the "muck" from the bottom of the Fermzilla out as I stopped the enclosed transfer before pickup reached it, but may have gotten a little and that is what I was seeing on those first lot of pours!

I think you're also right that I've been spoilt previously by the nice beers I've bought locally. This Coopers canned stuff may just taste like this, just way too bitter for my liking for a draught beer, so probably my own fault here haha!

Yeh the initial SG seemed odd, when I calculated the alcohol % based on such, it was effectively zero, however, I had a few glasses and then used my alcohol breath tester to check quickly, it's definitely alcoholic haha!

Ok thanks again Elmo, lessons learned, I may move on to buying a wort kit now to get a better-tasting brew, cheers!

 

[bradmcm]

The bitterness will mellow with time, give it four to six weeks to condition. The Coopers Draught kits aren't that bitter, hopefully you will be pleasantly surprised by the end of the month.

 

[snowgoose]

The bitterness will mellow with time, give it four to six weeks to condition. The Coopers Draught kits aren't that bitter, hopefully you will be pleasantly surprised by the end of the month.

Thanks Brad, I'll leave it alone for now then, cheers for the information!

 

[TwoCrows]

New equipment will need the production oils and particulates removed. Wash all equipment in either Napisan or oxiclean and also PBW will serve you well. Then you need to sterilize.
Kit yeast is not handled well, transport and where it is store prepurchase. Get some quality yeast to suit your style of beer.
Two cans of draught and two boxes of Coopers BE in 38 or 46 litres would be around 1.040 or better.

I fermented a kit for a mate in my pressure fermenter and the Coopers can settled on the bottom bellow the yeast cake. Give it time to ferment 5 - 10 days with an ale yeast and all will be good. Give the yeast some time to eat and then finish.

If you can cold crash before kegging is good.
Give it time to Lager, even if it is an ale.

 

[snowgoose]

New equipment will need the production oils and particulates removed. Wash all equipment in either Napisan or oxiclean and also PBW will serve you well. Then you need to sterilize.
Kit yeast is not handled well, transport and where it is store prepurchase. Get some quality yeast to suit your style of beer.
Two cans of draught and two boxes of Coopers BE in 38 or 46 litres would be around 1.040 or better.

I fermented a kit for a mate in my pressure fermenter and the Coopers can settled on the bottom bellow the yeast cake. Give it time to ferment 5 - 10 days with an ale yeast and all will be good. Give the yeast some time to eat and then finish.

If you can cold crash before kegging is good.
Give it time to Lager, even if it is an ale.

Cheers TwoCrows, all taken on board mate, most appreciated. I think my ambition has simply outweighed my talent ... again!

 

[Drubbing]

the low OG could be due to not stirring it enough - you did brew a double can and that stuff is treacly. So 1020 may not have been the true reading. Always mix really well. Warm the cans before adding and add to warm water.

I always needed 7-10 days bottling for kits to condition, however they always had a taste I couldn't place, and this was more pronounced the earlier you open them.

 

[snowgoose]

the low OG could be due to not stirring it enough - you did brew a double can and that stuff is treacly. So 1020 may not have been the true reading. Always mix really well. Warm the cans before adding and add to warm water.

I always needed 7-10 days bottling for kits to condition, however they always had a taste I couldn't place, and this was more pronounced the earlier you open them.

Thanks Drubbing, all taken on board, thank you. I have since put this keg into "Lagering" with the hope it will improve over time.

I have subsequently fermented two bought wort kits from a local brew shop, an "aussie lager" and a "wheat". The idea is that before I go down the mashing rabbit hole, I should try some wort kits, kind of the best of-both-worlds approach. Brew shop wort kits I assume should be pretty good, well a lot better than canned versions anyway?

The lager is just like the Coopers extract sadly, quite bitter, just not drinkable for me I'm afraid. Again I have it to the side to lager. I may need to be extra patient with waiting for kegged beer to condition? I did think though that given it was pressure fermented and then left for a few days in a cold crash at 25-30 psi for final carbonation it would be right to go. Sadly this didn't change anything, bitter and cloudy.

The wheat one I have just finished fermenting and kegged and fridged, so early days yet, but I did taste it, and still quite bitter, so I'm a bit worried.

Maybe my expectations are too high for homebrew, I'm not sure, I just know that the beer I've been buying in kegs from another local homebrew supplier is just brilliant, irrespective of beer style. I've bought pilseners, lagers and wheats cloning various brands, and all are magnificent. I may have wrongly assumed I could just do the same and save a little more money.

I'm just wondering whether I'm making some silly error, but I don't think so, I've become extra vigilant with the fermenting of these wort kits. Could they just be crap wort kits or am I just too fussy as a result of being spoilt?

Any ideas appreciated team, thanks!

 

[Drubbing]

The lager is just like the Coopers extract sadly, quite bitter, just not drinkable for me I'm afraid. Again I have it to the side to lager. I may need to be extra patient with waiting for kegged beer to condition

Kegged beer shouldn't need much conditioning, as you're introducing instant carbonation, which is why bottling takes longer. You might get a little improvement over a couple of weeks, but long term storage does not = far better beer (Stouts excepted).

It's hard to say why your beer is not meeting expectations. Perhaps something to do with the pressure fermenting process? I've never used one and the few beers I've stuffed up are due to stupid recipe fails, not brewing ones.

 

[philrob]

I tend to agree with Drubbing about the pressure fermenting.
I have no idea why one needs to mimic a commercial process designed to turn megabrew around faster, rather than improve quality. Particularly so as a majority of homebrewers tend to underpitch their yeast, more so if relying on the yeast on top of the cans.
Get the basics down first, and only then look to more esoteric methods.
Hope time will sort your beers out, Good luck.

 

[snowgoose]

Kegged beer shouldn't need much conditioning, as you're introducing instant carbonation, which is why bottling takes longer. You might get a little improvement over a couple of weeks, but long term storage does not = far better beer (Stouts excepted).

It's hard to say why your beer is not meeting expectations. Perhaps something to do with the pressure fermenting process? I've never used one and the few beers I've stuffed up are due to stupid recipe fails, not brewing ones.

Thanks Drubbing, yes to avoid recipe fails, I went to the wort kits. Just trying to get a good one done. I feel like adding a litre of lemonade to them both just to pull the bitterness back, like a 1% shandy, but worried it could just screw it all together. Having said that, I probably won't drink them as is anyway lol.

The pressure fermenting process is pretty simple really, sanitise, sanitise, sanitise, add wort kit, stir, add yeast and seal. Add some CO2 to fermenter to purge oxygen. Then pressure to 15 psi then and then using spunding valve I set it to 9PSI to blow off fermented CO2.

Note OG from wort kit and then leave it to do its thing. Take an SG reading at Day 4 to check, and then on subesequent days until reading does not change. I then proceed to keg, cold crash and further carbonate

 

[snowgoose]

I tend to agree with Drubbing about the pressure fermenting.
I have no idea why one needs to mimic a commercial process designed to turn megabrew around faster, rather than improve quality. Particularly so as a majority of homebrewers tend to underpitch their yeast, more so if relying on the yeast on top of the cans.
Get the basics down first, and only then look to more esoteric methods.
Hope time will sort your beers out, Good luck.

Cheers Phil, pressure fermenting is really nothing too special, you are just keeping oxygen away from wort immediately and adding some carbonation along the way.

I regard what I am doing as pretty basic, just disappointed with the results thus far. I've just fermented and kegged a Ginger Beer for something different, it tastes great so far, so maybe I'm just picking wrong wort kits and recipes for my taste of traditional lagers and wheat beers, I dunno.

 

[Drubbing]

I regard what I am doing as pretty basic, just disappointed with the results thus far. I've just fermented and kegged a Ginger Beer for something different, it tastes great so far, so maybe I'm just picking wrong wort kits and recipes for my taste of traditional lagers and wheat beers, I dunno.

Well it makes sense to only brew beers you want to drink. Assuming that's the case and that you've bought wort kits, the only factor by process of elimination, is the fermenting . Personally, I don't see that process as 'basic' or even necessary. I've always brewed in a plastic brew bucket with a tap and lid, and not had any fermenting issues.

Brewing can be as simple or complicated as you like - you can have a whole 3 vessel setup costing a few thousand and a bank of fridges to batch brew - all done scientifically with treated Ph water and being methodical about every single step. Or you can do it all in one vessel with a bag. Both methods can make excellent beer.

 

[snowgoose]

Well it makes sense to only brew beers you want to drink. Assuming that's the case and that you've bought wort kits, the only factor by process of elimination, is the fermenting . Personally, I don't see that process as 'basic' or even necessary. I've always brewed in a plastic brew bucket with a tap and lid, and not had any fermenting issues.

Brewing can be as simple or complicated as you like - you can have a whole 3 vessel setup costing a few thousand and a bank of fridges to batch brew - all done scientifically with treated Ph water and being methodical about every single step. Or you can do it all in one vessel with a bag. Both methods can make excellent beer.

Yep all understood Drubbing! You know what? I think I could be actually buying the wrong wort kits, so my apologies to all. In order to try and resolve the issue, I've decided to start tasting the wort before fermenting them to eliminate my fermenting and kegging processes. Just bought a Grolsch from the same supplier and yep too bitter for me from the outset.

I like the Stellas, Peronis, Asahis, and German wheat beers, so I assumed (wrongly it appears) that a standard Coopers draught kit, an Aussie Lager and Aussie Wheat wouldn't be too far off, certainly drinkable in any case. I'll get the Grolsch finished anyway and then may turn to another supplier just for comparison's sake. Sadly I think I'll have to dump what I've done and put my tail between my legs. Lesson learned, try before buying, that's what I'll do from now on!

Cheers again for the suggestions and advice, all appreciated!

 

[TwoCrows]

BJCP will give you style guidelines for a perticular beer you like. If it suits your taste, not to bitter ( under 30 IBU's is a start).
Kolsch, Munich Helles and some export Pilsners from southern Germany come to mind they are under 20 IBU's. You can make what you like. It only becomes a defined style when you put it into a beer competition.

 

[bradmcm]

Sounds like you should give the pre-hopped kits a miss. I would do full extract beers and then you can control the bitterness level. From your previous post you probably would like beers in the 10-15 IBU mark.

 

[Grok]

add wort kit, stir, add yeast and seal. Add some CO2 to fermenter to purge oxygen. Then pressure to 15 psi then and then using spunding valve I set it to 9PSI to blow off fermented CO2.

You don't want to purge Oxygen before fermenting, only after fermenting! Yeast likes o2 for the first part of its life cycle, and I wouldn't pre pressure the tank, let it build up on its own time.
I pressure ferment all the time, or more so do a hybrid, very light pressure (1~3psi) for a day or so, then slowly crank up the pressure over the next few days to finish around 16~20psi at 20 degrees C, then after chill down the pressure generally remains positive at about 2 degrees C , harvest some yeast for next batch if you want, then after co2 pressure injecting clarifying agent (if you want to), apply the CO2 to your favourite pressure for serving, this way you are using minimal bottle CO2.
Best of both worlds I reckon!
I also like to tube the co2 blow off after the PRV into a bottle of boiled water to hear the "popping" sound as fermenting is taking place, it is an audio feedback that is easy to get a feel of where your fermenting cycle is at with out taking measurements.

 

[snowgoose]

BJCP will give you style guidelines for a perticular beer you like. If it suits your taste, not to bitter ( under 30 IBU's is a start).
Kolsch, Munich Helles and some export Pilsners from southern Germany come to mind they are under 20 IBU's. You can make what you like. It only becomes a defined style when you put it into a beer competition.

Excellent, cheers TwoCrows, that's gonna be real helpful to me, I should stay below 20 IBU's, I'll be sure to do that. The next stage is getting a brewzilla to create my own worts so I'd expect I'd be able to better control final taste!

 

[snowgoose]

You don't want to purge Oxygen before fermenting, only after fermenting! Yeast likes o2 for the first part of its life cycle, and I wouldn't pre pressure the tank, let it build up on its own time.
I pressure ferment all the time, or more so do a hybrid, very light pressure (1~3psi) for a day or so, then slowly crank up the pressure over the next few days to finish around 16~20psi at 20 degrees C, then after chill down the pressure generally remains positive at about 2 degrees C , harvest some yeast for next batch if you want, then after co2 pressure injecting clarifying agent (if you want to), apply the CO2 to your favourite pressure for serving, this way you are using minimal bottle CO2.
Best of both worlds I reckon!
I also like to tube the co2 blow off after the PRV into a bottle of boiled water to hear the "popping" sound as fermenting is taking place, it is an audio feedback that is easy to get a feel of where your fermenting cycle is at with out taking measurements.

Ah ok gotcha Grok, I'll give this a go, I was under the impression that oxygen was the enemy. I've got a spunding valve set up into a bowl of water and just leave it around 9 for the whole ferment cycle, and yes it's very active from the 12 to 36-hour mark. I guess this is the yeast doing its gig?