Wild Yeast Problems - How you overcame

[motman]

Just info for you: in a feed manufacturing situation at one stage I was involved in, nestle took over and implemented a testing procedure swabbing for salmonella and mould. The place was infested. They shut it down and demanded repeated cleaning and swab results until levels were acceptable. They were using meths / ethanol as a cleaner, to good eventual effect. I have used an organic acid combo called mycocurb in another feed manufacturing situation to good effect. You can buy swab kits. Keeping the environment dry is key and initially knocking numbers down to reasonable levels to give you a chance seems to be required too.

Of course, this is assuming your environment is high in yeast / mould that is generating airborne spores, a completely possible situation.

Good luck!

 

[TimT]

Farming out the problem further, I've just sent a mail to Sandor Katz, who is an enthusiast about pretty much all forms of fermentation and will surely have had experience with some bizarre brewery infections of his own.

 

[clintonforster]

Farming out the problem further, I've just sent a mail to Sandor Katz, who is an enthusiast about pretty much all forms of fermentation and will surely have had experience with some bizarre brewery infections of his own.

Cheers Mate, Gonna try a few different things early next week to see if i can solve the issue.

 

[cooperplace]

Whenever I pitch, I always re-hydrate the yeast then gradually bring it up to the osmotic potential of the beer, over about an hour. I time it so that the wort is ready at the same time as the yeast. Also I always use a lot more yeast than on the instructions. My beers get to a very vigourous fermentation in no time, and fermentation finishes quickly. I then keg it all and store it all at 4C.
The aim is to get my yeast established before anything else.
I never have problems with infections. There are probably as many wild yeasts here as anywhere else, but they don't get a chance.

You may have covered this in your posts, but how do you rehydrate, and how long does it take fermentation to get going after you pitch?

 

[Jimrtl81]

Have you replaced beer and gas lines and soaked taps / couplings in line cleaner.
I've had that same taste from old lines before.

 

[TimT]

Got a mail back from Katz but it was only a form email about common issues some of his correspondents have, ah well, maybe no luck on that front.

 

[Mardoo]

I'm guessing he would just say "well, see what you can make with it."

 

[TimT]

So how's this progressing Clinton? Found a way to beat the beast yet?

 

[clintonforster]

Hey Tim,

Haven't brewed anything for a couple weeks, just taking some time to consider the different options. Soon i'll do the wort test by leaving a few bowls of fresh wort out around the house, and i am planning to get a steam cleaner and blast the whole place.

 

[Mr B]

Very nice

I wonder, could you put Starsan in the steam cleaner?

Bit of a left field thought..........

 

[motman]

Hey Krausen,

Maybe do a bit of homework on the effectiveness of steam on the yeast / mould.. I know in the manufacturing situations I've been in, steam cleaning was not supposed to be effective on the spores. Also, It adds moisture, the key ingredient. I'd suggest bleach and then vinegar or starsan or some other type of acid would be a pretty effective combo (after the bleach has had it's time to do it's thing and the chlorine has gassed off).

Ended up using products based largely on propionic acid but mixed with other acid salts to inhibit the growth of spores. Of course, I don't know if you could get hold of it domestically.

I think that meths with a splash of water will knock it on it's head too, suggested here (although some of the info in the article seems wrong, I'd guess that's the reporters incorrect interpretation and the meths bit is right): http://www.abc.net.au/local/stories/2011/02/25/3149028.htm

Anyhow, hope one of 'em works.

 

[stakka82]

Hey mate

Feel really sorry for you... I've had the same thing for almost 2 years now, on and off. Heart breaking and soul destroying barely close to describing the anguish. I'm infection free for 5 brews now but like others here, I've sidestepped the problem rather than conquering it.

As far as I can tell my problem is also wild yeast - low flocculation, same taste to every beer regardless of style or ingredients. Distinctive sickly sweet aroma, sort of like rotting fruit but other off flavours in there too. slight medicinal among others. Accentuated alcohol profile for the strength of the beer. Yeast cake does not form due to extremely low flocculation and the residue at the bottom where it would usually form is a brown rather than cream colour.

I had 3 years of trouble free brewing before this hit. It hit about 6 months after moving into a new place (one I bought, unfortunately. Apart from the brewing issues I love it). At that time I had just bought a BM 50 and was brewing beers I was crazy about. Absolutely in love with the craft but this tore the guts out of me... I went through all the phases the OP has... cleaning **** like crazy (chlorine, steam, starsanning floors like some sort of insane person), bought several sets of new gear etc.

This thing, whatever it is, defies common brewing logic. I used to have decent sanitation processes, these days I'm OCD but it just laughs at sanitation processes. Like the OP I have even tried cube fermenting to no avail. When I first brewed in the cube out of desperation I was sure I had finally nailed it but impossibly the thing had still got in some how. I'm still not sure how this is even possible... based on a couple of things I have changed successfully, and read I believe it can do this by forming biofilms/having highly heat resistant spores. I think it is also likely to be highly airborne, this is how it seems to infect an entire area.

Also, and I realise this is conjecture with no scientific proof, I believe the strain to have the 'killer' gene (or rather, virus). This is the main thing that makes it so devastating. Unlike other spoilage organisms, this allows it to take over the ferment regardless of initial cell numbers at pitch. With most organisms you pitch so big the domesticated yeast produces the majority of the beers flavour profile even if you have some contamination (which is inevitable). Eg, you have 1000 yeast cells to 1 contaminating cell. Therefore all other things being equal your beer tastes 99.9% the way it should. With this 'wild yeast' even if you have those ratios at pitch, by a quarter through ferment your deliberately pitched yeast has been 3/4 killed and the majority of the ferment is being done by the wild yeast. By ferment's conculsion it is 100%. This explains why you know the brew is gone 1-2 days in. It might also explain the dark color of the yeast slurry at the end of the ferment (dead yeast).

The numbers above are made up to illustrate the theory. As I said it's all conjecture. I don't have a magic bullet but after much hair pulling for years now I am having some success with brewing off site and have gone back to basics. I put my brew pot in the oven at 250 for an hour before I do anything on the day. Back to extract after years of all grain. No temp control cause I don't trust the fridge... saisons in summer. Since having gone back to extract I have been ok, but to be honest I think this is cause I have ditched all my mash gear. I don't even trust my mill or blender any more, and I certainly dont believe the old 'boil kills everything' mantra. As an example of the type of paranoid though processes I have these days this is why - biab bag gets a few airborne spores on it, they get on the top of the pot and lid which dont get to 100 degrees at any stage of the process, then when I cool in the laundry sink the condensate, containing the wild yeast, re-innoculates the cooled wort.

Another thing - this thing laughs at starsan. I think mark beer said it and I totally agree, I dont think it's effective on wild yeast. I am almost at the point where I am going to re-introduce my grain gear bit by bit but I certainly wont be leaning on star san to do the heavy lifting. I am going to be using hot caustic where possible and also bleach mixes.

Another thing - every time you have a batch go bad you are essentially manufacturing billions of new enemies. When a handful of spores of this thing are so dangerous it explains why it's so hard to get rid of it in an area once it has established... and also explains why trying again in the same place week after week is counter productive.

Once again this whole thing is conjecture and I realise I probably come across as half insane but believe it or not I actually used to work as a microbiologist and have a degree in biological science. What I have read says the above is possible from a techincal standpoint... who knows if its right or what. I do know though when you work in a lab you are amazed at the resilience of microbes and their ability to show up in 'sterile' environments (environments that are a lot cleaner than my garage).

At times I have actually doubted my sanity and have thought maybe somehow I was deliberately introducing the thing subconsciously... it has been a wild ride and I'm sure it's not over (though I hope to god it is). I actually had to take several month breaks from even looking at the forum cause it made me too angry to read knowing everyone else was making great beer and I was cursed.

Anyway maybe the more this is talked about the more people share info and the more we generate successful strategies for beating this thing.

Cheers and good luck to everyone who has been unfortunate to cop this ******* piece of **** thing, what ever it is...

 

[manticle]

I don't doubt your sanity. Too many good brewers I've seen this happen to.

 

[jimmysuperlative]

This issue has been around for some time ... http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/54973-got-to-be-airborne-right/. I'm still dealing with it years down the track. One in every three or four brews are lost on average. If I'm honest, I'd have to say that I've never brewed "good" beer since the problem reared its ugly head. Even the better beers have something that's just not quite right about them.
I have just tried the no-chill cube and ferment method again and while I produced a drinkable ale, it had all too familiar characters that I've come to associate with this infection ...low hop aroma for style, really difficult to describe aroma from yeast cake, and a taste that while it isn't unpleasant is just not true to beer style, but slightly bitter and with a "sameness" to every other beer I've brewed in the last couple of years. ...and then, every so often there's one that gives more hope. ...or there's one that gets tipped straight away 'cause it's shiteful.
I think about giving it all away every few days.

 

[Eagleburger]

Once again this whole thing is conjecture and I realise I probably come across as half insane but believe it or not I actually used to work as a microbiologist and have a degree in biological science. What I have read says the above is possible from a techincal standpoint... who knows if its right or what. I do know though when you work in a lab you are amazed at the resilience of microbes and their ability to show up in 'sterile' environments (environments that are a lot cleaner than my garage).

So did you have a look at it?

 

[TimT]

Also, and I realise this is conjecture with no scientific proof, I believe the strain to have the 'killer' gene (or rather, virus). This is the main thing that makes it so devastating. Unlike other spoilage organisms, this allows it to take over the ferment regardless of initial cell numbers at pitch. With most organisms you pitch so big the domesticated yeast produces the majority of the beers flavour profile even if you have some contamination (which is inevitable). Eg, you have 1000 yeast cells to 1 contaminating cell. Therefore all other things being equal your beer tastes 99.9% the way it should. With this 'wild yeast' even if you have those ratios at pitch, by a quarter through ferment your deliberately pitched yeast has been 3/4 killed and the majority of the ferment is being done by the wild yeast. By ferment's conculsion it is 100%.

Yes - the 'killer' gene factor sounds likely. Also: would it have a high alcohol tolerance - or possibly would it be the sort of microbe that actually eats alcohol? Hence the normal preservative effects of alcohol don't work?

Here's to all the crazy-brave brewers who've encountered these killer bugs.... and carried on regardless until they've gotten rid of them altogether.

 

[stakka82]

This issue has been around for some time ... http://aussiehomebrewer.com/topic/54973-got-to-be-airborne-right/. I'm still dealing with it years down the track. One in every three or four brews are lost on average. If I'm honest, I'd have to say that I've never brewed "good" beer since the problem reared its ugly head. Even the better beers have something that's just not quite right about them.
I have just tried the no-chill cube and ferment method again and while I produced a drinkable ale, it had all too familiar characters that I've come to associate with this infection ...low hop aroma for style, really difficult to describe aroma from yeast cake, and a taste that while it isn't unpleasant is just not true to beer style, but slightly bitter and with a "sameness" to every other beer I've brewed in the last couple of years. ...and then, every so often there's one that gives more hope. ...or there's one that gets tipped straight away 'cause it's shiteful.
I think about giving it all away every few days.

Yes mate that is exactly it. Relatively 'low level' infections strip hop aroma and make the beer NQR, anything worse is just spew that gets tipped immediately. Like others I have actually binned full fermentors a number of times now.

 

[stakka82]

So did you have a look at it?

At what mate?

 

[Nizmoose]

Jesus this thread is turning scary! I'm interested as to whether or not this has happened to any commercial brewery ever and if not why not?

 

[Blind Dog]

Yes: https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/23033131/gage-roads-warns-of-big-beer-loss/

and https://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/24605302/gage-roads-gets-back-on-track/