Wild Yeast Problems - How you overcame

[clintonforster]

i'm always sitting at 18/17 degrees.

 

[panzerd18]

I've never heard of chlorephenols from fermenting at the lower end of the scale. I ferment at low ends all the time and have not experienced this flavour once from doing so. Do you have a source?

I read it some where when I was researching clove flavours and temperature. Sorry I have no source as I can't remember where I saw it.

 

[yankinoz]

Taps on cubes and fermenters, if you have them, are a possible source. Otherwise it's probably airborne. Most of the wild yeast problem I've had or heard of became evident mostly after bottling or casking, and cold conditioning could stop them. In my case I got clove flavour after fermenting with a yeast (West Yorkshire) and at temps (<20 C) that should not have created it. Only a hint at bottling, but later I got a new beer, hefeTTLandlord, and a gusher or two. Then I changed fermenter taps, which might be what cured the problem, but I don't know for sure.

If your problem is evident that soon, there must be a lot of wild yeast getting in, that is, something is "pitching" a bunch of them. Try relocating the affected operations or looking for hidden horrors in cracks and crevices.

I've used Iodophor spry on painted room surfaces after visiting dogs and other possible contaminants. But iodine could stain some surfaces.
.

 

[clintonforster]

Taps on cubes and fermenters, if you have them, are a possible source. Otherwise it's probably airborne.

How soon do the wild yeast favours become evident? Your cultured yeast should have a running start on them. Cold-conditioning below 7 C. after fermentation and carbonation (if you bottle) should halt wild yeast activity if you can do it.

The smell and flavour is apparent after 24 hours of fermentation starting. I can do this and yes it does halt the activity but it is already too late as the bad flavour is all through it.

 

[TimT]

Test whether it's airborne by just leaving out a bowl of wort....! Just some water with malt extract added.

 

[clintonforster]

Test whether it's airborne by just leaving out a bowl of wort....! Just some water with malt extract added.

sounds like a plan

 

[yankinoz]

TimT's idea is a good one. Just keep in mind that an airborne infection should be evident in the exposed wort as soon or sooner than what you've been getting. Since every cubic metre holds a menagerie of microorganisms, but at low concentrations, given time any exposed wort will pick up wild yeast infection, which is why medievals drank their ale as soon as the yeast dropped.

How are your pitching rates and lag times?

 

[clintonforster]

I do 15 litres and use either a whole pack of dry or liquid yeast. Lag time not 100% sure as I usually pitch early evening say 7pm and by the next morning it's cranking

 

[jimmy86]

I'm on my phone so sorry if this has been mentioned, have you tried throwing a cheap kit and kilo down to see if it's fermentation or the brewing process.

 

[Dazzbrew]

A bloke in my homebrew club had a persistant infection problem, aparently for about six months all his beers turned out shit. He was brewing in his laundry and it turned out there was water damage in the floor/walls of the laundry. He sprayed the whole room with iodophos/water solution from one of those pump action garden sprayers and got rid of the problem.
I would be worried about discoloration of the walls but apatently he didn't have an issue with it.

Another isolation exercise would be to have your mate bring ALL of his gear to your house, sanitize, brew, ferment & bottle/keg. If the result is festy beer then you can rule out your gear being part of the problem.

Conversely you could take all your gear to his house to brew and ferment there too (not bring cube home). If you get bad results there then its your gear or process.

I hope you can sort it out soon mate.

 

[yankinoz]

Clintonforster:

Whatever you find out, however you solve it, please post the results. Your experience is one many of us dread and could experience.

 

[TimT]

Fascinating suggestion on the sourdough thread -

"There was a study on another bread group that would support the idea that once the yeast is prevalent in a local environment - it inoculates other favorable environments relatively easily. If you're making sourdoughs - it's not a problem. In this case - it's problematic. It may also be that he is introducing the yeasts - sterile disposable gloves?"

Doing a sourdough as a way of replenishing the natural environment would be my dream solution. But things are not often that simple....

 

[Mr. No-Tip]

OP. Do you have a beard?

 

[TheWiggman]

Make sure when you crack a beer open clinton it is in a venue seperate to the meeting.
Tasters must then bathe in vodka.
Then burn clothes.

 

[Mardoo]

OP. Do you have a beard?

That occurred to me as well, thinking of the Rogue beard ale. Or dreads.

 

[Markbeer]

Hey Guys,

• I have tried sanitizing with phosphroric acid sanitizer, star san and iodophor.

I say this over and over, and I think I said it on the first 10 or so posts. These don't work on wild yeast. You are wasting your time with these sanitisers when you have a wild yeast problem.

Try 200ml bleach, add 5 litres water then 200ml vinegar and give it a good soak. Use the ratio if you want to do it to the top, just don't use on stainless.

This smells bad and needs to be rinsed a few times with boiling water. But WILL kill wild yeasts. You should probably be doing this before every cold side transfer.

The sanitisers you are using were designed to be kinder to yeast so that they would not likely affect fermentation.

 

[Nizmoose]

Just another thought related to one above, try brewing and cubing at yours then fermenting at your mates, if the beer is good you know it's definitely your fermentation and if it's shit you know it's definitely prior to pitching.

 

[clintonforster]

Just another thought related to one above, try brewing and cubing at yours then fermenting at your mates, if the beer is good you know it's definitely your fermentation and if it's shit you know it's definitely prior to pitching.

I have done this and it still came out shit, I took my fridge that had just been bleach bombed and an almost new fermenter to my mates place and fermented there, still got the same problem. I'm guessing i should have bleach bombed the fridge and fermenter over ther or done as Markbeer has suggested over there before pouring out of the cube and pitching as the fermenter had been used once and that brew had become infected.

 

[Nizmoose]

I have done this and it still came out shit, I took my fridge that had just been bleach bombed and an almost new fermenter to my mates place and fermented there, still got the same problem. I'm guessing i should have bleach bombed the fridge and fermenter over ther or done as Markbeer has suggested over there before pouring out of the cube and pitching as the fermenter had been used once and that brew had become infected.

Okay well that leaves the only thing in common your fermenting fridge surely? Tried fermenting with nothing but the fermenter / cube and forgetting about temp control for the sake of ruling out the fridge?

 

[stux]

I don't use taps on my cubes. I only buy cubes with the bung unbored and never bore them.

Anyway, how are you sanitizing? What is your process? (in detail )

When dealing with something like this, it really does help to eliminate EVERYTHING that you can, and my way of doing that is to recommend getting a Fresh Wort Kit, put it somewhere else, and chuck a yeast in.

Are you spraying the outside of the dry yeast packet with starsan? Are you soaking your scissors in starsan?

I do.

Anyway, I had a persistant wild yeast infection. I still do, but it doesn't affect my beer anymore.

In order to avoid the wild yeast I can not re-use/wash yeast cakes.

I only ever work with first-gen yeast now.

I'll get a new Wyeast packet, i might have smack ited, or not, depends, turn off the air con, I'll go to the dining room table (not the kitchen!), I put down tin foil, I spray the tin foil, I light a large candle in the middle of the tin foil, and leave that for a few minutes while I faff about. The hot draft is meant to draw organisms up and away rather than letting them settle.

I spray the wyeast packet ( do not put it in my starsan jug as the starsan is either hot starsan, or cold starsan!), I line up 4 gamma sterile sample tubs, and then carefully cut the packet open, in a corner, with the scissors which just came directly out of a starsan solution. I unscrew one lid, and hold it with the sterile part downwards leaving it on top of the threads in my starsan soaked hands. I just move the lid to the side, pour the wyeast in, move back and seal a little bit, move on to the next, get that all done as soon as possible. and then go back and make sure the lids are tight.

When spinning up the yeast, I'll make a starter by weighing out 100g/L of DME and then adding boiling water and yeast nutrient and a stir bar into an erlenmeyer flask, I boil everything in the flask. Before it comes to the boil, I put a 12"x12" square of al foil over the neck and loosely down the sides and continue to boil for 15 mins. Let the starter cool in situ, in the flask. The flask is now sterile. Or close enough. I have left uninnocculated starters stand like this for weeks with no activity. I'll even make up all 2 or 3 steps in 3 different flasks at the same time.

When I'm going to start the yeast, I put the uninocculated start on the stirplate for as long as I feel like to pre-aerate. Generally while I let the split come to room temperature.

One of my previous splits has been brought up to temperature, and I give it a good shake to suspend everything... at the ready, woth the stirplate turned off, possibly with a candle lit, I lift the foil, pour in the yeast and reseal. Stirplate goes on high.

After a few days when its ready.... or after a couple of more steps.

I pour my cubes into my fermenter as quickly as I can... through the cubes lid. I do this outside in the open air, in the middle of the garden with no trees above me. I pour the cubes out into the fermenter through the lid as quickly and efficiently as I can, trying not to splash and make a mess. Lid goes on fermenter. Lid is generally covered in starsan foam. or was.

Now, I get my oxygen kit, whose hose/stone has been soaking in starsan. I blow the starsan out with oxygen, then oxygenate the wort. I ensure that the oxygen is on when the stone goes in, and stays on until I can rinse the stone in water, to try to prevent wort getting into the stone.

Lid goes back on. Wash the oxygen kit, soak the hose/stone in starsan with oxygen off, blow the starsan out with oxygen, seal stone in alfoil.

Now, I get my chilled starter. I pull the alfoil off. And then decant most of the wort off straight onto the grass, leaving enough to resuspend the yeast. Foil goes back on. Foil has been held with the sensitive side down the entire time.

Now, I use a magnet to find the stir bar and slide it up the side of the flask... foil off, magnet out... foil back on.

next swirl and resuspend the yeast... lift lid off fermenter... again sensitive side down and not touching anything else... and dump the starter in. Yes... its cold yeast into a 20C fermenter. I don't find the yeast care... (see my Kraussen explosion )

I don't actually have the airlock in place at this time, I have a rubber bung in place. I position the fermenter... get all the heat controls and thermoprobes connected... and then finally pull an airlock with bung out of a bucket of starsan. Its a 2 piece so the top half is not in place... put the airlock in, pop the top in to create the airlock... and leave it.

This prevents the airlock drawing back into the fermenter as I move it about. Also when I take samples, or keg, I break the airlock by pulling the lid off the 2 piece airlock... again, to stop the contents of the airlock entering the beer. I can't prevent air being draw in, but I can prevent anything else, and hopefully the beer is strong enough now, with a c02 blacket and good yeast populations to withstand the small draw back.

No infections.

BUT if I then harvest the yeast, no matter how carefully, and try to reuse it, I get a nasty brett type infection.

Currently I brew BIAB, and I do not have a tap in my kettle. I siphon using a stainless steel jiggle siphon and silicon hose into cubes. The cubes have been pbw'd, then I put a L of starsan in each of them, shake it about, and pour it out getting it on the lids and threads. The siphon and hose have been soaked in PBW, rinsed, and are now sitting in the starsan bucket... they come straight out of the bucket and into the wort.

I don't PBW/starsan my pot. But everything else after that is soaked in PBW or filled with PBW, and then rinsed and then either soaked in starsan, or has starsan put inside and shaken about and swirled to get a good coating.