Water To Grain Or Grain To Water

[AndrewQLD]

50 lt tun 1/2 full or 3/4 full for a double brew.

 

[Darren]

And you see no dough balls at 2/3 full?

cheers
Darren

 

[AndrewQLD]

No, I should say that I mash in and stir with a big stainless whisk so perhaps that breaks up the bed effectively, but no I don't get any dough balls. YET touch wood

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Kai]

Yes, by heating the water well above what Promash said it had to be. But my point is you then let the water sit in the tun, and if it doesnt come right you have all the time in the world to adjust it exactly where you want it, as compared to doing the adjusting after mashing has started, and having a greater thermal mass to move.

[post="109058"][/post]​

Aah

 

[wessmith]

Hi Wes,
Not sure where you are coming from there or if you are being real or not. I have worked with many different enzymes and know what you just wrote is nonsense.
Why would a brewery "mash-in" at lower than mash temps, (you called it gelatinisation temps?) then raise the temp of the mash. Obviously, they are worried about denaturing something, and yes it is the B-amylase that most of which becomes irreversibly inactivated at above 65C. Look at the lab mash, it finishes in 10 minutes.
What you do to the malt in the first 10 seconds will certainly make a difference to the finished beer (be it good or bad).


Finally what you wrote seems to be in disagreeance with an earlier post?

Its called step mashing Darren, and that will help explain why you think my comments are in disagreement with an earlier post. I would suggest you persue the topic in "Technology Brewing and Malting" by Kunze and/or "Brewing" by Lewis & Young and "Malts and Malting" by Briggs. There is a fascinating difference between lab theory and actual practice surrounding this issue.


And hey, stop frightening people about this -Amylase degradation. It is of no consequence in a normal mash.

Wes

 

[warrenlw63]

And hey, stop frightening people about this -Amylase degradation. It is of no consequence in a normal mash.

Wes

[post="109080"][/post]​

Hey Wes! Don't worry about our Darren.

He's probably seen it happening real-time under his microscope...

It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... It's the way of the future... :lol: (Apols. to The Aviator)

Sorry for trivializing this thread guys. It's sort of the way it's become. I agree with Wes... I've tried some pretty sloppy methods over the years and haven't managed to kill too much -Amylase that I can see.

Warren -

 

[Darren]

Wes and Warren,
Yes have read the text and maintain my stance. You and any other doubters should have a look at this link
http://www.ibd.org.uk/igbsite/business/tra...umm%20Sept..pdf

hope you learn something

cheers
Darren

 

[tangent]

well, i just underlet for the 1st time (about 10minutes ago for an APA), and you're right.... less dough balls. In fact while I was stirring, i didn't see one dry patch

 

[wessmith]

Darren, one of the great things about hands-on actual brewing experience is that you get to balance the theory with the practical. I too have read all the endless texts about enzyme degradation etc etc. Most of this research is targetted at major breweries who are seeking the ultimate in beer stability and clarity. Very little of it has any relevance in the micro and certainly not in the home brewing context.

Let me give you a couple of examples: An 800ltr micro brew, single infusion mash at 66C (last Saturday actually at the Macquarie Hotel in Sydney). Fill mash tun with 450ltr of strike water carefully mixed to 72C. Let sit for 10 mins to stabilise thermal mass of mash tun. In with 150kg of grist at 20C (brewery is airconditioned at 20C) and stir in - takes about 7 to 10 mins to mix thoroughly. Mash settles at 66C and thats the way it stays for a 60 min rest.

Or take the case of one of our DME breweries with a mash hydrator fitted. The grist is augered up from the mill into an enclosed "funnel" device where the grist is mixed with a tangential flow of hot water at around 74 to 76C. The output then falls into the mash tun.

In both cases the grist has been subjected to temps that you claim would irreversibly denature the -Amylase within seconds. But the beers are fine and attenuate to target. Why? Simple really - the grist would have no more than 12 to 15% flour with the rest being "chunks" of starch of varying sizes. Before these "chunks" can be hydrolysed they must be gelatinised and this takes a few minutes as they swell and release their enzymes. By this time the mash temp has stabilised and the conversion process proceeds normally. Obviously some of the AVAILABLE -Amylase will be denatured at mashin, but the overwhelming majority are still protected in those "chunks" of starch. Quite different from the Congress mash scenario in the lab.

And I reckon thats enough for this topic - as I said earlier lets not frighten people with this theoretical stuff. If you personally feel the need to debate enzyme theory I would suggest posting on the HBD where guys like Steve Alexander absolutely love this stuff.

Wes

 

[warrenlw63]

:super:

Warren -

 

[AndrewQLD]

Darren just agree to disagree, while you may have the theoretical expertise I daresay that Wes would have the practical experience and that is what we are talking about here, what happens in the homebrewers mash. Still an interesting conversation but it is starting to get a little tiring.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[cubbie]

I am doing my first Ag tomorrow morn, so this has been an interesting topic.

The differing methods are interesting. When I was doing partials i always added the water to the grain, but at the most I only had 4kg to mix.

I can see the benifits of methods such as GL, whereby he add the water to the tun and then lets it cools to strike temp, but this must add a little extra time to the day. Mind you, it can save you some time becuase you are not likely to miss your strike temp.

Having said that I might give underletting a bash. By all accounts it seems to produce less dough balls. Which is great becuase 1. my stir spoon is a bit weak and 2.would appear to be a quick and clean method and 3. there would be less heat loss to the environment as the tun fills. I always have a problem calculating this.

I normally set my mash tun thermal mass to zero, becuase like most I pre-heat with boiling water.

Of course on the day things may change.

 

[tangent]

if it's one of those white plastic "brewers spoons", snap it now (save some time) and throw it away.
If you've done a 4kg partial cubbie, just do the same thing without the extract.
You'll have an awesome day tomorrow, good luck :beer:

 

[Screwtop]

well, i just underlet for the 1st time (about 10minutes ago for an APA), and you're right.... less dough balls. In fact while I was stirring, i didn't see one dry patch

[post="109132"][/post]​

Finally: What I wanted to see, evidence of practical experimentation. Thanks Tangent

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Darren does like to provoke some "very " spirited debate on any subject he touches.


h34r:

 

[Doc]

BTW, if you undershoot your strike temp, the amount of hot water you need to add to bring it up just a couple of degrees will probably overflow your mash tun. Another good reason to keep the liqour to grist ratio up around 3:1 or even 3.5:1 - the thermal mass of the grain will have less effect on temp drop.

Wes

[post="108854"][/post]​

Absolutely. I almost try to overshoot my strike temp by a degree, as it is easier to add a litre of cold water to hit the target, than trying to add hot to bring the temp up.

Beers,
Doc

 

[Weizguy]

<abbrev>I am doing my first Ag tomorrow morn, so this has been an interesting topic.

The differing methods are interesting. When I was doing partials i always added the water to the grain, but at the most I only had 4kg to mix.
</abbrev>

[post="109170"][/post]​

cubbie,
Sounds like your 4kg mini-mash is more grain than my 25 litre full ag Berliner Weisse.

U should have no trouble with ag, coz U are already an ag'er (just topped up with extract).

Testify! :super:
Seth

 

[dicko]

thought i better add my vote into the poll.i underlet and have been doing so for awhile.posted ages ago about it courtesy of dicko.(whos very quiet these days).

cheers
big d

[post="108825"][/post]​

Hi big d and others,

A very interesting debate.
As big d said, I too, underlet my mash.
I was sick of dough balls and the final straw was when I broke the plastic spoon (two of them) when I used to add the grain to the water.
My strike water is allways 73 deg c to achieve 66 mash temp and hitting mash temp is now second nature for me with my brewery.

I have not had much time to participate or even read a lot of the posts as of late due to me expanding my business.
I have hardly done any brewing as well - I sure hope this situation improves as the weather gets a little colder.

Cheers and happy mashing

 

[johnno]

Welcome back dicko.

I too was wondering where you had got to.

johnno

 

[big d]

hi dicko good to see your still around.

back to the topic
can someone post me a dough ball.ive never had this problem yet and my dog needs something to play with.interesting posts so far but at the end of the day all i want to do is make beer without the science jist.

cheers
big d