Water To Grain Or Grain To Water

[Gough]

Gough,
Re balling with MO. My guess is you're getting more flour - yes?

Rgds,
Peter

[post="108722"][/post]​

I do tend to have a reasonably fine crush, although it is the same setting for all the various base malts I use and I only tend to see dough balls with MO. That said, since I began underletting a few months back I've had a lot less of an issue with the MO doughballs - hardly any now really. I just noted it in response to Lindsay's comment that he'd also noted more of a doughball issue with MO compared to other malts.

Shawn.

 

[Mercs Own]

I add the grain to the water slowly and stirring so as to mix the grain thoroughly - no dough balls. Water temp generally drops about 7 degrees.

 

[johnno]

Just use Powells.
Very few dough balls and low efficiency.

johnno

 

[Tony]

true ross....

will have to do some mods to my ton to do it with my current "whereever they stand) mash rig

cheers

 

[Darren]

Bring back the old Darren.

He's gone all Alex de Large on us!! :lol:

He's not responding to the taunts of the Droogs.

Warren -

[post="108683"][/post]​

Hey Warren and others,
I have a new job so no time to post during the day. Ahhh I loved being a full-time student.

I would have thought it would be obvious as to why under-letting is kinder on the enzymes.
If you are pouring malt into hot water approx half of the grains will be exposed to higher than normal mash temps. As you will all be aware enzymes are proteins and can very easily denatured (especially beta amylase). Hitting the malt with high temps is most likely to denature this enzyme and hence a sweeter beer will ensue.
If you are underletting, the cold thermal mass of the mash tun will rapidly drop the temp of the first "runnings" of water to around mash temps. As the water rises the temp stabilises slowly finally resulting at the correct mash temp.

cheers
Darren

 

[wee stu]

I just add the water to the grains and stir like mad.

[post="108692"][/post]​

Me too.
Why?
Because I have always done it this way and am getting old enough to be resistant to change.
Though I am beginning to notice my own pattern, hand cracked grain via the porkert, hand stiirred grain in the mash, all gravity fed system - so hand lifted (with extra hands) kettle of wort to the burner.
Result, truly hand crafted ales
And a much longer brew day, and a dodgy back, and RSI in the wrist that does the cranking, but we won't delve into that further because I am old enough to be resistant to change :lol: .

awrabest, stu
the luddites' friend

 

[Screwtop]

Darren, well explained and plauseable, is this proven tested fact? hope so it makes sense.

 

[tangent]

ok, more contact heating mash tun and connectings first, than straight onto the grain so the strike temp is more evenly distributed

 

[Darren]

Darren, well explained and plauseable, is this proven tested fact? hope so it makes sense.

[post="108813"][/post]​

Scewtop,
There is plenty of evidence that B-amylase is completely denatured (irreversibly killed) at high temps.

cheers
Darren

 

[Kai]

As are all enzymes. Sounds entirely plausible to me, although I don't think it would make a big difference unless you have a mash without a huge amount of diastatic power.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Darren, well explained and plauseable, is this proven tested fact? hope so it makes sense.

[post="108813"][/post]​

Scewtop,
There is plenty of evidence that B-amylase is completely denatured (irreversibly killed) at high temps.

cheers
Darren

[post="108821"][/post]​

Darren i think screwtop was refering to the underletting and heat distribution theory as apposed to the enzyme denaturing theory :lol:

Cheers
Andrew

 

[big d]

thought i better add my vote into the poll.i underlet and have been doing so for awhile.posted ages ago about it courtesy of dicko.(whos very quiet these days).

cheers
big d

 

[warrenlw63]

Hitting the malt with high temps is most likely to denature this enzyme and hence a sweeter beer will ensue.
If you are underletting, the cold thermal mass of the mash tun will rapidly drop the temp of the first "runnings" of water to around mash temps. As the water rises the temp stabilises slowly finally resulting at the correct mash temp.

cheers
Darren

[post="108777"][/post]​

Shouldn't the cooler thermal mass of the bulk grain hitting the hot water and fairly rapidly dropping the temp as a whole have a very similar if not same effect on the whole process? :unsure:

C'mon folks let's be totally honest, this is all BS. :lol: I'm not knocking underletting but both methods will work equally as well.

My only reason for wanting to try underletting is the chance it will lessen the dreaded doughballs. :super:

Darren, have you had a mash that you've dumped into strike water (that's if you've ever done one that way) fail to convert on you?

BTW congrats on the new job.

Warren -

 

[pbrosnan]

I too mix progressively starting with the water then three scoops of grain then a good stir then repeat the process until up to about 16L of water (depends on the grain bill). The water is usually heated to 80c or so but the mash temp will be about 63-67C (again depends on what I'm making) by the finish (with some additions of cold water). The whole process takes about ten minutes and I've had no trouble with doughballs. How come there's not voting option for us progressives?

 

[wessmith]

Folks, when underletting you must have the water temp at a level to compensate for the thermal mass of both grain AND the mash tun. When adding just grain to water, you only need to allow for the thermal mass of the grain. My basic knowledge of physics says the latter procedure would be slightly lower in temp. And forget all this nonsense about denaturing enzymes in the mashing process - in practice it makes no difference to the conversion.

BTW, if you undershoot your strike temp, the amount of hot water you need to add to bring it up just a couple of degrees will probably overflow your mash tun. Another good reason to keep the liqour to grist ratio up around 3:1 or even 3.5:1 - the thermal mass of the grain will have less effect on temp drop.

Wes

 

[Stuster]

Sorry to jump on the bandwagon Darren, but a quick google seems to suggest that the enzymes are not as delicate as all that. (Of course, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but luckily none of this knowledge is mine anyway, so I'm safe.)

From this forum.

The amalyase enzyme is amazingly stable and a dilute mash will not hurt the tertiary/quantinary structure. The half-life of beta-amylase in 18.2 M-ohm water is 10 years at -20 d c, >72 hours at 37 d c and > 24 h at 75 deg C.* I could go on, but it can be boring! However, one cool study showed the stability of alpha and beta-amalyase being nearly 3 months at 70deg C on a solid phase system.

Also from byo mr wizard

Enzyme denaturation does not occur instantaneously and if you intend on mashing in at 140 F (60 C), for example, and accidentally come in at 162 F (72 C) you can quickly add cool water and retain the activity of some beta-amylase molecules that have yet to be cooked by the high temperature.

Anyway, I may well try underletting to see if it is an easier way to mash in.

 

[Screwtop]

[/quote]

Darren i think screwtop was refering to the underletting and heat distribution theory as apposed to the enzyme denaturing theory :lol:

Cheers
Andrew

[post="108824"][/post]​

[/quote]

Spot on Andrew, from very limited experience 8 partials and one AG I have found that the temp of strike water added to the tun has to be increased by the thermal mass loss of the tun. Then the strike temp calculated using grain temp provides the correct infusion temp. Breweries use underletting from the kettle where the strike water and step additions are heated because the plumbing exists between kettle and mash tun. The water remaining is kettle/boil addition. Their sparge water is heated ready for sparging in the Lauter Tun.

I simply wondered if underletting produced higher effiency or if it was simply to prevent dough balls, or just for convenience because the plumbing exists between the bottom of the tun and kettle as in the case of breweries.

 

[Screwtop]

Bump

 

[Ross]

BTW, if you undershoot your strike temp, the amount of hot water you need to add to bring it up just a couple of degrees will probably overflow your mash tun. Another good reason to keep the liqour to grist ratio up around 3:1 or even 3.5:1 - the thermal mass of the grain will have less effect on temp drop.

Wes

[post="108854"][/post]​

Hence my purchase of a handheld immersion heater - takes all the stress of missing strike temp away... Strangely, since aquiring one, my initial strike rate has improved no end ...

Cheers Ross...

 

[warrenlw63]

I see looking at the stats that we dump and stirrers are leading the poll by 4.55%. :beerbang:

Do we get a nice doughball as a prize? Make mine a Marris Otter doughball please.

Warren -