Water To Grain Or Grain To Water

[Weizguy]

<abbrev>
I simply wondered if underletting produced higher effi&copy;ency or if it was simply to prevent dough balls, or just for convenience because the plumbing exists between the bottom of the tun and kettle as in the case of breweries. </abbrev>

[post="108858"][/post]​

Good question, Skrewtop. This needs to go in the 'Brewing Myths Debunked" thread.

I'd say "convenience, coz the plumbing exists". Balling would not be a problem due to mechanical stirrers, I think. Efficiency? Could not say. Doubt it. I think that they (megabrewers) derive efficiency from a finer grind/ higher extraction/ process control.

Can I get a witness who can quote from Kunze, perhaps?

Seth

 

[Darren]

As far as i know breweries mix the grain and water together as they hit the tun. Ie they feed it as a sludge at excactly the correct temp. If it was all bullcrap Warren, why would they not just dump and stir

cheers
Darren

 

[wessmith]

Darren, most micros simply dump and stir. No great science and they hit their target strike temps without drama. Large commercial breweries use various mash mixing systems to introduce the grist and water to the mash tun at a temp that will eventually settle at the chosen temp. They still have to consider the thermal mass of the tun AND the malt. These same breweries usually have heated mash vessels so they can mash in at lower temps - ie below gelatanization temps and then slowly raise the temp to the desired rest. If you saw some of the mash programs that are used you would quickly realise as Warren has said, that all this nonsense about enzyme degradation is exactly that.

Wes

 

[warrenlw63]

As far as i know breweries mix the grain and water together as they hit the tun. Ie they feed it as a sludge at excactly the correct temp. If it was all bullcrap Warren, why would they not just dump and stir

cheers
Darren

[post="109006"][/post]​

Dunno Darren... You tell me. You're on a roll.

I was merely stating that's it's OK to go both ways. (Stop laughing anybody, yes I could have worded it better) :lol:

Warren -

 

[Darren]

Darren, most micros simply dump and stir. No great science and they hit their target strike temps without drama. Large commercial breweries use various mash mixing systems to introduce the grist and water to the mash tun at a temp that will eventually settle at the chosen temp. They still have to consider the thermal mass of the tun AND the malt. These same breweries usually have heated mash vessels so they can mash in at lower temps - ie below gelatanization temps and then slowly raise the temp to the desired rest. If you saw some of the mash programs that are used you would quickly realise as Warren has said, that all this nonsense about enzyme degradation is exactly that.

Wes

[post="109013"][/post]​

Hi Wes,
Not sure where you are coming from there or if you are being real or not. I have worked with many different enzymes and know what you just wrote is nonsense.
Why would a brewery "mash-in" at lower than mash temps, (you called it gelatinisation temps?) then raise the temp of the mash. Obviously, they are worried about denaturing something, and yes it is the B-amylase that most of which becomes irreversibly inactivated at above 65C. Look at the lab mash, it finishes in 10 minutes.
What you do to the malt in the first 10 seconds will certainly make a difference to the finished beer (be it good or bad).


Finally what you wrote seems to be in disagreeance with an earlier post?



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wessmith Posted on: Jan 1 2006, 04:18 PM


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Kai, if you want a really attenuative wort then mash at 64 to 65 - not 66. Its that dicky. Good luck with your Saison - one of my favourite styles and currently drinking but a bit heavy in this hot weather ar 6.?% ABV

Wes

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...posts&hl=&st=25

cheers Darren

 

[Guest Lurker]

As usual Wes hit it on the head. Its a question of whether you want 2 variables (tun heat losses plus grain heat losses) or 1 (the grain). I like to reduce the unknowns so I put the water in first, and get it to exactly the temp Promash says it has to be with tun thermal mass set to zero. Then I know I pretty much have to hit my strike temp when I chuck the grain in.

 

[Darren]

GL,
What sort of mash tun are you using? I haven't seen any difference in the final temps between dump/stir and underletting. I suspect the thermal mass of a HB set-up is miniscule compared to the thermal mass of the grain.
You must be a dump and stir?

cheers
Darren

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

I like to add the mash water to the tun, at a higher temp ( only 5*c or so), let it heat up the tun, then wait for it to cool down to strike temp.

I feel that it is important to get the tun up to strike temp first to reduce heat loss when adding grain.

 

[Kai]

As usual Wes hit it on the head. Its a question of whether you want 2 variables (tun heat losses plus grain heat losses) or 1 (the grain). I like to reduce the unknowns so I put the water in first, and get it to exactly the temp Promash says it has to be with tun thermal mass set to zero. Then I know I pretty much have to hit my strike temp when I chuck the grain in.

[post="109030"][/post]​

Don't you have to take the thermal mass of the tun into account whichever way you slice it?

 

[Darren]

As usual Wes hit it on the head. Its a question of whether you want 2 variables (tun heat losses plus grain heat losses) or 1 (the grain). I like to reduce the unknowns so I put the water in first, and get it to exactly the temp Promash says it has to be with tun thermal mass set to zero. Then I know I pretty much have to hit my strike temp when I chuck the grain in.

[post="109030"][/post]​

Don't you have to take the thermal mass of the tun into account whichever way you slice it?

[post="109040"][/post]​

Spot on kai and it doesn't make a lot of difference. Add the water first and you need to account for the loss of heat to the environment (upwards with lid open) too whilst you fiddle around slowly pouring the grains in.
Much of a muchness really except that underletting is easier and produces less dough balls.

cheers
Darren

 

[Tony]

when i dump my hot water in the ton with no grain in it i switch on my pump and heat everything up before i add the grain.

I get a 3 deg c temp drop.

then when i add the grain i get the usual 5 to 7 deg drop depending on the water/grain ratio.

I generally set my promash mash tom thermal mass at 0.2 in summer and 0.25 in winter to hit strike temp on the head.

my ton is an uninsulated (it gets a blanket wraped around it on brew day) 50 liter keg and a davey hot water circularing pump.

all that metal soaks up 3 deg which would make a big difference to the mash i recon.

Still going to try underletting, i have been having haxe problems with some beers and not with others with the same procedure but different malts, must be dough balls.

cheers

 

[AndrewQLD]

All of the above is interesting but slightly confusing. Using Beersmith or Promash after entering the thermal mass of my tun and the grain temp I hit mash in temps EXACTLY every single time, regardless of wether I underlet, overlet or add water and grains gradually. So I don't really thing it makes much difference to obtaining the correct mash temp.
And as far as denaturing enzymes, I can't see how adding water to the top of the grains or from the bottom would be any different, it's still hot water. I mash in with strike water at 73c for a 66c mash so in my case it would not be possible to denature any enzymes for the few seconds that the strike water comes into contact with the grain before the temp starts to settle.
Cheers
Andrew

 

[Mr Bond]

Maybe we could wait until the brew comps this year and ask all the top 3 from each category what their methods are and see if it points towards a superior outcome from dough in mashing regimes.Not to mention all the other variables which make brewing such a subjective and debatable pursuit. :blink:

Long live experimentation and lively debate :beer:

 

[Darren]

All of the above is interesting but slightly confusing. Using Beersmith or Promash after entering the thermal mass of my tun and the grain temp I hit mash in temps EXACTLY every single time, regardless of wether I underlet, overlet or add water and grains gradually. So I don't really thing it makes much difference to obtaining the correct mash temp.
And as far as denaturing enzymes, I can't see how adding water to the top of the grains or from the bottom would be any different, it's still hot water. I mash in with strike water at 73c for a 66c mash so in my case it would not be possible to denature any enzymes for the few seconds that the strike water comes into contact with the grain before the temp starts to settle.
Cheers
Andrew

[post="109049"][/post]​

Andrew,
When ever I have done a top addition I have filled the tun with hot water and slowly tipped the grains into the hot water. I always wonder whats happening to that labile enzyme whilst doing it too.
If I have added hot water to the top of a tun full of grains I spend half an hour breaking all the dough balls.
Just my experience, water from the bottom, maybe one or two small dough balls. Water from the top, a tun full of dough balls.

cheers
Darren

 

[Darren]

Maybe we could wait until the brew comps this year and ask all the top 3 from each category what their methods are and see if it points towards a superior outcome from dough in mashing regimes.Not to mention all the other variables which make brewing such a subjective and debatable pursuit. :blink:

Long live experimentation and lively debate :beer:

[post="109050"][/post]​

Time has shown that the winner of most HB shows is a newbie who spends his entire time at the mash. Winners come and go.
Its all about passion and the time you spend on it.

cheers
Darren

 

[tdh]

I underlet the hot liquor at the Grumpy's mashtun whilst pouring the crushed grain on top. Keeps dough balls to a minimum and there's no hot water splashing around either.
Much easier mixing too rather than adding water to a huge dry pile of grain.

tdh

 

[Guest Lurker]

As usual Wes hit it on the head. Its a question of whether you want 2 variables (tun heat losses plus grain heat losses) or 1 (the grain). I like to reduce the unknowns so I put the water in first, and get it to exactly the temp Promash says it has to be with tun thermal mass set to zero. Then I know I pretty much have to hit my strike temp when I chuck the grain in.

[post="109030"][/post]​

Don't you have to take the thermal mass of the tun into account whichever way you slice it?

[post="109040"][/post]​

Yes, by heating the water well above what Promash said it had to be. But my point is you then let the water sit in the tun, and if it doesnt come right you have all the time in the world to adjust it exactly where you want it, as compared to doing the adjusting after mashing has started, and having a greater thermal mass to move.

 

[AndrewQLD]

I must be one of the lucky few, as I don't have a dough ball problem. Stir for a couple of minutes AFTER all the water is pumped in, which is pretty much what you do when you underlet.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Darren]

As usual Wes hit it on the head. Its a question of whether you want 2 variables (tun heat losses plus grain heat losses) or 1 (the grain). I like to reduce the unknowns so I put the water in first, and get it to exactly the temp Promash says it has to be with tun thermal mass set to zero. Then I know I pretty much have to hit my strike temp when I chuck the grain in.

[post="109030"][/post]​

Don't you have to take the thermal mass of the tun into account whichever way you slice it?

[post="109040"][/post]​

Yes, by heating the water well above what Promash said it had to be. But my point is you then let the water sit in the tun, and if it doesnt come right you have all the time in the world to adjust it exactly where you want it, as compared to doing the adjusting after mashing has started, and having a greater thermal mass to move.

[post="109058"][/post]​

Practice grass-hopper.
Do not rely always on yee all mighty beer software.

cheers
sensai :blink:

 

[Darren]

I must be one of the lucky few, as I don't have a dough ball problem. Stir for a couple of minutes AFTER all the water is pumped in, which is pretty much what you do when you underlet.

Cheers
Andrew

[post="109059"][/post]​

Andrew,
I bet your tun ain't full?

cheers
darren