Warning To No Chillers

[manticle]

Previous poop fights aside (and I've had my own with TND) and his animosity with certain retailers notwithstanding, he did have some points that were at least worth discussing.

 

[mikesnothere]

I'd throw the cube too.

And yes, if I had an infection in a fermentor it would get the toss too; $16 for a Bunnings fermentor makes the decision easy.

This is such a waste, an old fermenter makes an excellent seat with a cushion on top.

 

[Nick JD]

The guy's opened his cube & let some airbourne yeast fire up his cube,

I just read the OP. Opened the cube to make a starter and then closed it again.

Throw out the brewer.

 

[sim]

Sim,
Im not saying you need an autoclave for homebrewing but simply that there are plenty of micro-organisms that can survive 100 C and hence an autoclave runs at 121 C for liquid and 130+ for solids.

Im not refuiting this Darren, and im well enough read and convinced, im just pointing out that it would be good to not have to throw them out. So in another turn of words, if a clean and sanitise will do it then "it'll be fine". I use glass fermentors, and i dont ever have/want to throw them out.

 

[jlm]

Previous poop fights aside (and I've had my own with TND) and his animosity with certain retailers notwithstanding, he did have some points that were at least worth discussing.

Certainly, however his comparison between microbiologist-y lab work with fermenting a beer at home is like comparing something to another thing that are completely different.

 

[sim]

Certainly, however his comparison between microbiologist-y lab work with fermenting a beer at home is like comparing something to another thing that are completely different.

...doesnt everyone use a laminar flow hood to bottle their beer??

 

[manticle]

Yes, well we all make mistakes. I once tried to eat a tank and broke most of my teeth.

Darren has put forth many an argument I think is puerile, negative and based on very little (whether empirical or experiential) over the time I have been on this forum.

However, if I am to remain rational, I cannot judge him on previous arguments but on the ones he puts forward now and at least some of what he is saying is borne out by my own, non-provable, non quantitative experience.

I'm interested in at least some extrapolation or explanation rather than cutting him down due to a not so friendly history.

 

[mikesnothere]

Genuine question: besides the dreaded CB, how many other micro-organisms can survive 100 deg C and how many of them can live in wort?

Not sure of exact numbers but there are a lot (Anthrax is one!) that make endospores (which are the real problem, more so than biofilms). Spore forming bacteria that will thrive in your wort, won't survive 100C, but the their spores will, and they'll survive sanitising, and UV light. Sterilising with sodium hyperchlorite (bleach) (freshly made up) for 5 to 10 minutes will kill them. The big problem is that your fermenter can look and smell clean after multiple cleaning sessions, but it's only once wort is put back in, that the spores will reactivate.

A "quick" test you could do, is to ferment a sugar/nutrient solution. If it goes funky again, you know you've got a problem and need to toss the fermenter/cube, without wasting a brew.

 

[Muscovy_333]

Genuine question: besides the dreaded CB, how many other micro-organisms can survive 100 deg C and how many of them can live in wort?

I say genuine question and I mean it - as stated above I have had infection recur in sanitised, heat pastuerised NC cubes although some of those may have been due to leaky cubes. Have had it happen in previously infected plastic fermenters too though, which while not heat treated, were chemically cleaned, rinsed and sanitised.

As far as I am aware only spore formers will survive greater than 100 degrees.
However, a combination of time and temp will kill most spore formers as well.

Time, temp and pressure will kill the lot as it lyses or bursts the spore former cell wall and exposes it to the heat.

Canning use a mathematical equation to calculate the correct time/temp combination that is product specific and takes into account things like water activity, product density, pH, salts, solids, conductivity and generally a target organism (botulinum is the gold standard target organism for canning)


As always it is a little more complicated than this, but thats the summary IMHO.
I dont use any sanitisers, just boiling water pre-cube and pre-ferment.

I store all of my vessels with water and sodium metabisulphite (cold water only). Have not had infection yet...but i generally pitch yeast within a day or two of cubing.

Poor hygeine, dirty seals and the air are your enemy.


EDIT: Forgot to add, microbes definately build resistance to your cleaning regime so it is important to change your method every now and then to wipe out the freaky mutated garage superbugs that you are creating with your sanitising regimes. I have just changed over to sodium perc for a couple of months, then i will go back to sodium meta...

 

[mikesnothere]

Certainly, however his comparison between microbiologist-y lab work with fermenting a beer at home is like comparing something to another thing that are completely different.

I'd disagree. Obviously you are not going to build yourself a lab in you shed to brew, or even to try and emulate most lab practices. But the same basic principles do apply, and if used to guide your thoughts (if not your hand) is only going to be beneficial. Knowledge is Power!

 

[manticle]

Not sure of exact numbers but there are a lot (Anthrax is one!) that make endospores (which are the real problem, more so than biofilms). Spore forming bacteria that will thrive in your wort, won't survive 100C, but the their spores will, and they'll survive sanitising, and UV light. Sterilising with sodium hyperchlorite (bleach) (freshly made up) for 5 to 10 minutes will kill them. The big problem is that your fermenter can look and smell clean after multiple cleaning sessions, but it's only once wort is put back in, that the spores will reactivate.

A "quick" test you could do, is to ferment a sugar/nutrient solution. If it goes funky again, you know you've got a problem and need to toss the fermenter/cube, without wasting a brew.

Cool. In keeping with the very little I already knew (re spore forming organisms). How likely is the presence of anthrax bacteria in a cube or around a brewery? Or any of the other heat resistant bacteria?

The recurring infection I had certainly didn't give me anthrax or botulism poisoning - just tasted horrible and made me sad and diappointed.

So sodium hyperchlorite kills most/all of them? I remember when I got my recurring infection I stepped up my regime to the one I suggested earlier (includes bleach, then a boiling water rinse, then a sodium met rinse - all to sanitise but the latter two to remove the bleach as it can make band-aid beer). Pretty sure I still got a couple during that time - switching to glass for starters and fermenting directly in the cube knocked most of it on the head. Only infections since have been cubes that haven't sealed properly.

 

[manticle]

I just read the OP. Opened the cube to make a starter and then closed it again.

Warning to no-chillers: Don't do stuff that renders the theory and practice of no chill entirely redundant.

 

[mikesnothere]

Cool. In keeping with the very little I already knew (re spore forming organisms). How likely is the presence of anthrax bacteria in a cube or around a brewery? Or any of the other heat resistant bacteria?

The recurring infection I had certainly didn't give me anthrax or botulism poisoning - just tasted horrible and made me sad and diappointed.

Anthrax? not likely! That was just to scare you. The odds are against an infection being spore forming, but not so significantly as to dismiss the possibility. Again I couldn't give you any numbers, but if you've had a recurring infection (read spore forming) once, the chances of another infection of the same type rise dramatically, as that bacteria is likely a local in your vicinity.

 

[the_new_darren]

The guy's opened his cube & let some airbourne yeast fire up his cube, IMO there is little reason to throw it out when a good clean & sanitise should be all that's required.

Gotta laugh at you TND, if I'd advised throwing it out & buying a new cube, you'd of no doubt gone the opposite opinion & accused me of bullshitting & trying to sell more cubes Your personal attacks have become more than tedious...

Cheers Ross

Its not a personal attach Ross, it because someone of your "stature" and with a big "cult" following and giving at the least, uneducated advice I find quite disturbing.

As for someone buying cubes off you, I doubt there would be too many doing that as Bunnings etc will always sell cheaper. However you do sell brew sanitiser and beer making ingredients so you must admit that you do have a vested interest in someone making another beer because they had to dump one.

As you would be well aware, I am a microbiologist and fully understand the misinformation that you have peddled in this thread.

For simplicity, I will cut and paste from this wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biofilm

Formation of a biofilm begins with the attachment of free-floating microorganisms to a surface. These first colonists adhere to the surface initially through weak, reversible adhesion via van der Waals forces. If the colonists are not immediately separated from the surface, they can anchor themselves more permanently using cell adhesion structures such as pili.^[6]

and

Biofilms are usually found on solid substrates submerged in or exposed to an aqueous solution,

and
Biofilms are ubiquitous. Nearly every species of microorganism, not only bacteria and archaea, have mechanisms by which they can adhere to surfaces and to each other. Biofilms will form on virtually every non-shedding surface in a non-sterile aqueous (or very humid) environment

and

Bacteria living in a biofilm usually have significantly different properties from free-floating bacteria of the same species, as the dense and protected environment of the film allows them to cooperate and interact in various ways. One benefit of this environment is increased resistance to detergents and antibiotics, as the dense extracellular matrix and the outer layer of cells protect the interior of the community.





Now, I think the last point is very important. Sanitisers will not impregnate and kill contaminating bacteria ESPECIALLY if the detergent has not removed the protective layer.




So my advice is if you have had a cube that has swelled, then you probably have an infecting heat resistent bacteria or heat adapted wild yeast (yes thats possible), then for $15 a cube (1/2 the cost of ingredients) then throw the cube out.




Personally, I would chill and pitch with large numbers of viable brewing yeast within 24hr.

cheers

TND

 

[jlm]

I'd disagree. Obviously you are not going to build yourself a lab in you shed to brew, or even to try and emulate most lab practices. But the same basic principles do apply, and if used to guide your thoughts (if not your hand) is only going to be beneficial. Knowledge is Power!

However TND was trying to equate splashing "insert favoured sanitiser here" in a fermenter at home, where in reality in my opinion all we do is ry to keep our desired yeast strain in the fermenting beer as dominant as possible, with splashing "insert favoured sanitiser here" around a lab (and I have no experience of this, am a simple if dashingly handsome electrician) to do the whatever it is that is done in microbiologist-y situations. Stand to be corrected but when TND is trying to rid the world of feline HIV he requires (not can do with) a much higher standard than the home brewer can get away with. Apples vs custard apples.

Also Anthrax can survive anything. Listen to last years album with Belladonna on vox again.

 

[the_new_darren]

Manticle,

Any spore forming organism can be heat resistant, especially if they can get into a nook or cranny where for what ever reason it is a "little" cooler (ie the inner edge of a thread.

tnd

 

[Muscovy_333]

As you would be well aware, I am a microbiologist.


[/quote]


I'll back that!
Although, I'm personally not a fan of wikipedia quotes...

but then again i was too lazy to reference my contribution.

 

[manticle]

@TnD

Can most of those also live in wort or their spores survive in fermenting beer? I know some microflora can live in low pH environments and are alcohol, hop and pH resistant. Are all the spores of spore forming organisms able to live in these conditions too (I know there's a difference between the bacteria and the spores)?

Part of the reason for the questions is actually trying to identify what has caused problems at my place - I always assumed it was a wild yeast rather than bacteria. I have drunk full bottles with no ill effects (although I'd never bother trying to ferment it if it came up again - first time I bottled and aged for over a year and the end result was still horrible). I have drunk some wort infected with same tasting foulness with no ill effects except for those which you get when you drink something that doesn't taste good like you want when you spit it out and curse the day for your wasted effort.

 

[Ross]

So my advice is if you have had a cube that has swelled, then you probably have an infecting heat resistent bacteria or heat adapted wild yeast (yes thats possible), then for $15 a cube (1/2 the cost of ingredients) then throw the cube out.



cheers

TND

This one line shows you didn't read the OP, to which I was replying. He opened up a cubed wort to take some out & resealed it. 2 days later it had a krausen & it was swelling.
Highly unlikely this has anything to do with heat resistant bacteria & hence my opinion still stands, that in this case, a good clean & sanitise should be fine & it's what I would do. You are welcome to your opinion as much as I'm entitled to mine. Your baited, uncalled for comments, that I'm saying this to simply increase my sanitiser sales is just plain stupid & insulting.


Anyway, i should have ignored the bait, so this is my last comment on the subject.

Cheers Ross

Edit: spelling

 

[Muscovy_333]

Can most of those also live in wort or their spores survive in fermenting beer? I know some microflora can live in low pH environments and are alcohol, hop and pH resistant. Are all the spores of spore forming organisms able to live in these conditions too (I know there's a difference between the bacteria and the spores)?

Part of the reason for the questions is actually trying to identify what has caused problems at my place - I always assumed it was a wild yeast rather than bacteria. I have drunk full bottles with no ill effects (although I'd never bother trying to ferment it if it came up again - first time I bottled and aged for over a year and the end result was still horrible).

Question was probably for TND, but spores could easily survive fermenting beer. The spore just allows the bacteria to hide away until the right conditions prevail.
They can survive far worse environments than yummy warm sugary solutions of relatively neutral pH.