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Question is meant for whoever can answer it really.

OK. So what micro-organisms, that are heat resistant, can form spores and can live anaerobically could give my wort a taste like fresh mown grass, some kind of weird bread and some kind of just plain odd, not right character, ferment wort out completely, remain cloudy in a bottle for at least 6 months then drop super bright but gush out of an unchilled bottle and stay tasting the same after a year?

My understanding is that no human pathogens can live in beer. CB spores produce toxins that are not technically pathogens. Are there other similar toxins produced by spore forming organisms that can survive in beer and so can we get sick from toxic beer?

If we can, why doesn't it happen more often?
 
I purchased my first fermenter about 6 years ago and still use this vessel for most primary fermentation. I'm still at a loss as to why I've never had a re-occurring infection that would require throwing out a perfectly good bucket...maybe luck? maybe fermenter quality? maybe cleaning regime?

Probably just jinxed myself...
 
I am a microbiologist and fully understand the misinformation that you have peddled in this thread.

Capture.JPG

and not very helpful at the best of times.
 
Question is meant for whoever can answer it really.

OK. So what micro-organisms, that are heat resistant, can form spores and can live anaerobically could give my wort a taste like fresh mown grass, some kind of weird bread and some kind of just plain odd, not right character, ferment wort out completely, remain cloudy in a bottle for at least 6 months then drop super bright but gush out of an unchilled bottle and stay tasting the same after a year?

My understanding is that no human pathogens can live in beer. CB spores produce toxins that are not technically pathogens. Are there other similar toxins produced by spore forming organisms that can survive in beer and so can we get sick from toxic beer?

If we can, why doesn't it happen more often?

Heaps of microbes form toxins, the ones that make you sick within 6 or 12 hours are generally pathogens. The others just kill you slowly and accumulate in your vital organs until they reach a point that is harmful (problem with that statement is that it cannot be quatified, and other things other than microbial by-products do the same thing).

Any infection once it gets started can impact on the environment it lives in. Acetobacter, lactobacillus lower pH for example. As conditions change other microbes may find favourable conditions and 'kick' into action if they have viable cell numbers or are viralent enough.

Some microbes produce bacteriocins that act against other bacteria. Most yeast dont produce these bacteriocins (A couple might)

I'm pulling this from the top of my head, but can see that you are generally curious so will dig out a reliable text i have somewhere and see what i can dig up to help appease your wonderful curiosity!
 
The chances of getting sick from beer is extremely low, however, the recent use of sealed cubes does increase the risk IMHO.

Manticle, my analogy would be that in a brew there are 100 billion yeast cells and like humans each and every one has a slightly different genetic make-up.

Some like the heat, some dont like the heat. It goes the same for bacteria within their own niece.

In virology it called a "quasispecies" and is well described easily because their genomes are easily sequenced (relatively small).

Bacteria are cunning little buggers and will survive where they can. If for example there was a "bit of crud" in the corner of fermentor that was not sanitised properly, the bacteria in that spot will have survived by adaption to the heat (ie only those individuals who were more heat tolerant will be in greater numbers the next time that extreme heat was applied) . Those same bacteria/yeast will not be "like" the majority of the other yeast/bacteria in a mixed culture so they will most probably produce some unwanted by-products of fermentation (off flavours or acid).

These individual yeast/bacteria are originally an extremely small part of the general population and are generally less able to reproduce and thrive and hence why they dont appear in every brew (ie they are out competed). Its only when the conditions suit their particular genetic make-up that they are able to gather a hold.

This is why changing your sanitising regime is important because if you use the same sanitiser over and over again, the smart little buggers "adapt" and gain resistance as observed with antibiotic resistance. Biofilms in the HB setting will play an important role in resistance. It is also well known that poor cleaning (ie specks of crud) aids in heat resistance (ie the heat is not transferred well into the centre of a dirty spot)

So, heat resistent "bugs" are everywhere, they exist in each discrete population. These "bugs" are generally not well adapted to "normal" conditions (ie they grow poorly). Its not until the conditions are changed or they are in larger than normal numbers that they rear their ugly heads.

cheers

tnd
 
This one line shows you didn't read the OP, to which I was replying. He opened up a cubed wort to take some out & resealed it. 2 days later it had a krausen & it was swelling.
Highly unlikely this has anything to do with heat resistant bacteria & hence my opinion still stands, that in this case, a good clean & sanitise should be fine & it's what I would do. You are welcome to your opinion as much as I'm entitled to mine. Your baited, uncalled for comments, that I'm saying this to simply increase my sanitiser sales is just plain stupid & insulting.


Anyway, i should have ignored the bait, so this is my last comment on the subject.

Cheers Ross

Edit: spelling

Ross, All due respect I did read the OP. Two days krausen from opening a cube seems unlikely. More likely it was fermenting already abeit, slowly prior to opening.

I have seen numerous posts of the "cubes" fermenting spontaneously in the last year. Notably, most OP do not report opening!!!!!!!!!!

Must be something else, yeah?

cheers

Darren
 
Ross, All due respect I did read the OP. Two days krausen from opening a cube seems unlikely. More likely it was fermenting already abeit, slowly prior to opening.

I have seen numerous posts of the "cubes" fermenting spontaneously in the last year. Notably, most OP do not report opening!!!!!!!!!!

Must be something else, yeah?

cheers

Darren

2 days opening a cube doesn't seem that unlikely to me. Infected cubes for me have generally been traced back to a leak -either thread tap (once) or not properly sealed lid. Have had other infections that related to starters and previously infected fermenters.

Thanks for the other info muscovy and TnD. Will digest it some more later on.
 
The chances of getting sick from beer is extremely low, however, the recent use of sealed cubes does increase the risk IMHO.

Manticle, my analogy would be that in a brew there are 100 billion yeast cells and like humans each and every one has a slightly different genetic make-up.

Some like the heat, some dont like the heat. It goes the same for bacteria within their own niece.

In virology it called a "quasispecies" and is well described easily because their genomes are easily sequenced (relatively small).

Bacteria are cunning little buggers and will survive where they can. If for example there was a "bit of crud" in the corner of fermentor that was not sanitised properly, the bacteria in that spot will have survived by adaption to the heat (ie only those individuals who were more heat tolerant will be in greater numbers the next time that extreme heat was applied) . Those same bacteria/yeast will not be "like" the majority of the other yeast/bacteria in a mixed culture so they will most probably produce some unwanted by-products of fermentation (off flavours or acid).

These individual yeast/bacteria are originally an extremely small part of the general population and are generally less able to reproduce and thrive and hence why they dont appear in every brew (ie they are out competed). Its only when the conditions suit their particular genetic make-up that they are able to gather a hold.

This is why changing your sanitising regime is important because if you use the same sanitiser over and over again, the smart little buggers "adapt" and gain resistance as observed with antibiotic resistance. Biofilms in the HB setting will play an important role in resistance. It is also well known that poor cleaning (ie specks of crud) aids in heat resistance (ie the heat is not transferred well into the centre of a dirty spot)

So, heat resistent "bugs" are everywhere, they exist in each discrete population. These "bugs" are generally not well adapted to "normal" conditions (ie they grow poorly). Its not until the conditions are changed or they are in larger than normal numbers that they rear their ugly heads.

cheers

tnd


I am not a fan of yours for various reasons but that was one of your better posts by a long way. Explained well in laymans terms and no bitching. A single butterfly doesn't mean its spring though.
 
tnd. recommended sanitisation regime with variety of cleaning substances please?
 
1. Toss the wort
2. Clean the cube
3. Sanitise the cube.
4. Put the episode down to a 'learning experience'

Ignore the haters and continue to brew. :p

Viva la no chill. :super:

Hopper.
 
I just vary my Starsan routine every 10 brews or so, and run a Starsan rinse through my equipment at higher than 'no rinse' ratio (much like a proper acid wash). Always after a big dose of PBW, and followed by a dose of SaniClean, a fresh water rinse, and then a 'no rinse' dose of Starsan. This is for all dispense, fermenting and brewing equipment.

Bacteria may survive the same product at the same ratios, but to my mind, a 'strong' dose at regular intervals will do the same as changing sanitisers.

If not, I'm happy to grab some Iodophor and use that brown muck every few brews ;)

Cheers!
 
That has to have been the most irresponsible load of frogshit I have ever seen come from your key board.

By your advice all laboratories in the world would simply employ "a quick clean and sanitise" rather than discarding or autoclaving contaminated equipment.

I hear the bullshit that the "canning" process, pasteurisation etc is all that is needed and I ask "why do laboratories use an autoclave at 121 C and a couple of atmospheres of pressure for sterilisation. Perhaps its because many bacteria are not killed at boiling?"

Perhaps Ross should do some research by typing BIOFILM into google and see how well his suggestion for cleaning/sanitising a previously infected cube will work. I suspect he is just trying to peddle more "sanitiser" without a care for the advice he has given

Cubes are cheaper than dumped beer. If your cube has been infected, dump it including your taps and transfer lines.

tnd

Me thinks TND has a man crush on Ross (not that there's anything wrong with that) & if TND was a dog he'd be all over Ross's leg in a flash...

Cheers

Paul
 

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