Throw Out Your Cubes

[seamad]

Might be a bit tricky coiling a copper tube inside a corny keg.

 

[stux]

Might be a bit tricky coiling a copper tube inside a corny keg.

Rotate the spiral in.

Ps: the problem is not the poppets, it's the lid seal which is designed to seal under pressure not vacuum

 

[dent]

Seems to me that 'no-chill-in-the-fermenter' is the solution for avoiding any botulism, since there is plenty of air in there. Obviously that takes away the (dubious IMO) benefit of pitching weeks later.

 

[bignath]

Seems to me that 'no-chill-in-the-fermenter' is the solution for avoiding any botulism, since there is plenty of air in there. Obviously that takes away the (dubious IMO) benefit of pitching weeks later.

this post reads like you may not understand how no chill works to me. I don't understand what you mean by a "benefit of pitching weeks later".

Benefits of no chilling aren't to deliberately hold off pitching yeast. It's so that you can brew today, and pitch whenever a fermenter becomes available. The amount of time i've had available to brew when my fermenters were full has steered me down the path of no chill.

Make hay while the sun shines 'cause one day soon it's gonna piss down....

Other benefit's are using less water/reducing an environmental footprint blah blah blah. I'm not a hippy, but not everyone has the ability to recycle the water they use to chill with. Mine would pretty much have to go straight down the drain with my setup.
The cube needs to be squeezed to get as much air out as possible so that it, among many things, doesn't let any nasties in like wild yeasts and start fermenting it before you're ready to ferment it yourself. It's also the heat of the wort in the cube that helps with maintaining an environment where most things won't be comfortable growing.

Seems to me (couldn't be fucked reading EVERY post in this thread) that what some are debating is maybe one type of organism that could potentially still thrive in a typical no chill environment. Happy to be corrected if i've got that wrong. FWIW, i have no knowledge and therefore no opinion as to whether what is being debated is possible or not (although i've always found manticle's posts very informative - apart from the one of him having a pull in a mates empty cube).

In my opinion, (long time no chiller), the benefits of no chilling in a cube, drastically outweigh the potential of this singular negative.

 

[sim]

i did no chill in corny kegs for a while there. i would punch in 300kpa of co2 to try and negate the vacuum caused by cooling. i think it worked, never quite felt happy with it though and would always pitch the next day. ultimately pushed me over the edge towards chilling.

I'm not a hippy, but not everyone has the ability to recycle the water they use to chill with. Mine would pretty much have to go straight down the drain with my setup.

heh, totally radical idea cautioned with but im not a hippy.

 

[pk.sax]

I think the one valid point Darren has put forward and should have said it better is that the organisms responsible for botulism won't manifest themselves like other infections and will go completely unnoticed up to the point that the poisoning affects the drinker. That is indeed a scary thought however, how many brewers simply rinsed their fv and bottles with hot water only have never got an infection? It's quite rare to get an infection unless your environment is very conducive to them.
Also, the ideal conditions for the botulism bacteria to survive, waiting for a cube of wort is also questionable.
What effect does the rigorous boil in the kettle have on driving off micro-organisms, especially the botulism bacteria is another question.

In my view, much like what Manticle asked before, Darren raises a valid point, but given his scientific background a better thought out advice would be expected of him. To me, a clear case of too little information being a dangerous thing. If he could apply those simple scientific processes to his analysis of how wort ends up in a cube, perhaps he might actually come up with a real reason to do or not to no-chill. Until then, it's all half-informed hearsay. I think the term is 'scare mongering'. I really don't believe Darren understands the complete process of wort into cube as well he makes it out to be.

 

[lickapop]

I got botulism poisoning from a no chilled beer once. I drank a whole heap of it one night. Then the next morning I woke up covered in dried puke, my head was pouding, couldnt remember anything from the night before and felt sick as a dog for the next 24 hours.

Be careful folks.

I call that a hangover ;P

 

[Pat Casey]

When I first opened at Faulconbridge I would regularly put wort kits on in the shop. Pre-ferment hydrometer samples all seemed to have a similar character to their taste. I thought this was just the house character of the producer. I did a couple of no-chill brews, and the pre-ferment hydrometer samples had the same character in their taste.

The taste of hot wort cooling slowly in plastic?

Perhaps, but would this taste be apparent in the finished beer? I think any no chill flavour would be lost in the great transformation of fermentation. Has anybody had a comp scoresheet come back with negative comments about "no-chill flavours" in the beer?

All of this can be tested. Brew a pale and lightly hopped wort, run half off into a cube and chill the remaining half. Ferment them side by side with the same yeast. Package the two beers and then serve them up in a blind triangular taste test. This would be a nice exercise for a brew club.

Because of my experiences I don't think no-chill is an ideal method, but it's not an ideal world. I think it's a useful technique to get you going, or if you are pressed for time, but I don't think it is a technique to aspire to. But, if it comes down to a choice between no-chill and no beer, then no-chill wins every time.

Pat

 

[Nick JD]

so, ur saying NickJD's method of chilling in 19L pot sealed with clingwrap (airtight but with trapped air) is actually better?

I think what he's getting at is that a chilled cube, if it contains a few C. botulinum cells can produce enough toxins in the cooled wort to poison the wort before it has even begun fermenting.

After the fermentation is finished these toxins (you only need SFA to be paralysed and fully fucked up) are then kegged or bottled. The bug doesn't get you - it's shit does. When they botox people's faces, it's the shit they inject.

There's a chance we've all had C. botulinum cells in our beer that have been kept at bay by the yeast and there hasn't been enough toxin produced to paralyse our faces ... but an infected nochill cube left at room temp for 3 weeks? Unless you reboil it and denature the toxin it would get you for sure. In the old days a preserved jar of peaches would kill the whole family.

Question is: why haven't we had it happen yet? Is should have. I strongly believe it's the pH of the wort that's limiting any growth of C. botulinum, otherwise we'd have had a case or two and none of us would be doing it. I think the hop oils and acids are also helping us here as well. These are things Darren seems to be forgetting to mention.

But if your cube has swelled - DO NOT FERMENT IT!

C. botulinum does not like air. Or a pH below 4.5 - but the quicker you can get your army of yeast into the wort, the better.

Oh, and this is what polyethylene is made from. About as simple a plastic as is possible to produce.

 

[stux]

Time for some facts

"There have been only six cases of botulism reported in Australia between 1991 and 2003. Two of these occurred in Victoria in 2000 and 2001 (Communicable Diseases Network Australia - National Notifiable Diseases Surveillance System)."

How many of those six cases were due to no-chilled beer?

I think I can guess.

Botulism, ie quite literally, 'sausage poisoning', is I would guess, most often caught from ill-cured preserved meats/sausages. And is a reason why I won't use "grandma's favourite salami recipe", unless there are nitrites in the recipe.

One of the major concerns for botulism spores is honey. I don't see darren going off his tree at all the honey being sold in stores around the country. Meanwhile, there has NEVER been a case of honey related botulism in Australia, or even being identified

"Honey has been described in the US literature as a source of infection but never implicated in Australia and surveys of Australian honey have failed to identify C. botulinum."

If the concern is the spores, then I won't let infants drink my wort.

http://ideas.health.vic.gov.au/bluebook/botulism.asp

 

[manticle]

i've always found manticle's posts very informative - apart from the one of him having a pull in a mates empty cube.

I don't know where you got that idea from.










It was full.

 

[seamad]

Does that make it a cream ale?

 

[pk.sax]

there was quite a lot of talk about having had had to ditch a lot of cubes in a vic swap brew beer...

 

[yardy]

because victolians can't brew good.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

actually, i think the advice to only store your cubes for a little time might be the opposite of what you should do if you have any concern at all about botulism.

As has been mentioned - if CB was to start growing in your wort, it might possibly produce enough toxin to harm you, before it really started to display obvious signs of infection.

So give it time to breed good and lots and start displaying the signs - the varieties of CB that are common in Australia and which have the sorts of properties that could conceivably survive a no-chill, also produce both copious gas and a foul odour when they infect a food product. Let em have time, hell give it a month or two, and your cube will swell up and stink if its infected. Then you throw it and the cube away. No swell - no infection.

As much as I generally think Darren is a worthless twat - in this he sort of has a point. Botulism is incredibly dangerous, its also incredibly unlikely in a no-chill situation; but if you're stupid and dont do it right, dont clean properly or use a cube thats swelled up.... you make it more likely and you increase your risk of encountering something that you really really never want to bump into.

So - making salami, sausages, canned vegetables, preserved meats AND canned (no-chilled) wort, all carry some risk of poisoning yourself. You need to be aware of that risk (and Darren regularly does us all a favour by reminding us its there) and make sure you do things properly. You wouldn't cure meat without nitrites, you wouldn't can carrots without a pressure canner - and you wouldn't no-chill wort that wasn't boiled for at least an hour, wasn't hopped, was for some reason at a higher than usual pH or put it into a cube that was less than thoroughly clean.

I personally believe, after (thanks to Darren) having spent multiple hours on research & conversations with food scientists and producers, that no-chill (as set out in the guide in the wikki on this site) is safe enough for me to be happy to consume and hand to my loved ones beers made using the technique. I'm happy within myself to show other people how to do it - comfortable that I am not placing anyone at risk.

But - well.... why should you believe me more than Darren? Botulism is extremely uncommon. I imagine that from a statistical point of view, even if infected NC cubes were as common as infected salamis, there probably wouldn't have ever been a reported case of botulism caused by it. And yet people still get killed when the salami factory, or uncle Guido gets it wrong. You feel like being at the head of the queue to be the first case caused by something new?

Its not 100% risk free - but thats not the same thing as saying its dangerous either. Manage that risk. Dont take shortcuts, do take care; and when some imbecile tells you you should ferment and try an NC cube thats swelled up and stinky - FFS ignore them and tip that shit out.

 

[manticle]

If you don't clean your cubes properly then you have more to be concerned about than the very rare (but very real) risk of botulism.

Why wouldn't you clean them and everything else, just for the pure fact of making good beer instead of horrible beer?

By the way: Botulism basteria survive boiling but don't do so well in low pH, sugar rich environs (not sure wort is low enough or sugar rich enough to be devestating). Botulism toxins (the scary bits) don't live through boiling. Can either live through fermentation (I keep reading that there are no human pathogens that can grow in beer)?

I am actually interested in real data rather than Darren's persistent bleating which is never accompanied by actually engaging with the reasonable counterpoints or questions. The closest he got this time was some fairly long drawn bow in regards to STDs.

As for nitrite free sausage - I know your thoughts on this but I regularly consume an old Italian lady's offerings of cacciatore and they are delicious. I make the occasional bit of smallgood related stuff without nitrites but all are either cooked or are cured whole muscle cuts (which I undertsand to be not suceptible to infection). I am interested in salami making and I am interested in additive free but I have held off going there.

It may be an irrational part of me lumping nitrites in with sulphites though and I don't react well to sulphites. Never had a problem with commercial salami - I just like the idea of adding less rather than more. Might bite the bullet - my family and friends eat my smallgoods too.

Sorry for OT.

 

[halabut]

Alpha acids have a bateriostatic effect against gram-positive bacteria, I'm not sure how mild but a quick bit off googling tells me that hops are the most effective preserving agent in beer. Botulism is unsuprisingly gram-positive.
If you're worried about botulism, the simple solution is to only ever brew IIPAs.

 

[kieran]

Well after 20 years of working with certain plastic products with nil problems, over night my system rejected them and I will be hospitalised if I come in contact with them now.

I wouldn't blink an eyelid if I knew the beer I was drinking was cubed but I personally would not do it every brew for years on end.

Yeah... and it can take 20-40 years to show the effects of smoking too...

If you're ingesting stuff that's been sitting in this..... You want to be pretty sure.

 

[pyrosx]

Yeah... and it can take 20-40 years to show the effects of smoking too...

If you're ingesting stuff that's been sitting in this..... You want to be pretty sure.

This plastics-are-scary and VOC stuff is hippy nonsense for normal usage.

There's a damn big difference between the level of exposure involved in the use of a no chill cube, and the prolonged exposure involved in "20 years of working with" those nasty plastics.

Also: What Nick JD said. C2H4. Same stuff people heat up baby formula in to give to the sprogs.

 

[manticle]

Yeah... and it can take 20-40 years to show the effects of smoking too...

If you're ingesting stuff that's been sitting in this..... You want to be pretty sure.

Plastic fermenters are made of the same substance and stuff sits in this to get ingested. My take was that people have concern about stuff sitting in this while its hot. HDPE is not necessarily designed as a substance for hot liquid but it is still rated to 110-120 degrees C from memory (which means it probably takes a fair bit more but who wants or needs to risk that?)

The effects of smoking (as an ex smoker I can say this) make themselves apparent every time someone else has a cold or throat infection or they try and run up a flight of stairs. It's just most smokers will happily deny their health suffers. Cancer might come later but there's a bunch of unpleasant crap in between.