Throw Out Your Cubes

[bum]

is pure horseshit. The vast majority of HIV, HBV (and HCV - probably more significantly) infections occur in IV drug users and men who have sex with men. Look up the figures.

I assume your sweeping generalisation (i.e. equine manure) doesn't take Africa into account.

 

[RobW]

Point taken:

The vast majority of HIV, HBV (and HCV - probably more significantly) infections in this country occur in IV drug users and men who have sex with men

 

[manticle]

Without willy raincoats of course.

Lesson: Clean and sanitise your cube. Wear a condom when you bum your mate.

 

[JDW81]

Without willy raincoats of course.

Lesson: Clean and sanitise your cube. Wear a condom when you bum your mate.

And don't microwave your weed.

 

[wessmith]

Fellas, I think its time to chill...........

Wes

 

[the_new_darren]

However I do take strong exception to this:

"a massive expansion in HBV and HIV in the heterosexual, non-asian, non-drug using community"

is pure horseshit. The vast majority of HIV, HBV (and HCV - probably more significantly) infections occur in IV drug users and men who have sex with men. Look up the figures.

Glad you went into IT, you are better suited there.

FYI, 30% of HIV transmission is in heterosexual community. HBV is distributed evenly between males and females with the asian population "generally" having higher incidence due to mother-to-child transmission.

HCV is most commonly associated with IV drug use, tattoos, and as I mentioned before, pre-HCV testing transfussion. IT IS NOT SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED.

I suspect you should get your facts right and as stated before, it would be safer that you sit behind a computer than in a lab.

FWIW, I work with HBV, HCV and HIV and have done so for 10+ years.

As for CB. I stand by my statement that no-chill certainly increases the chance of contamination. Up until now it would have been rare for wort to have been stored in anaerobic conditions. NC almost certainly fullfils this requirement.

cheers

TND

 

[ekul]

Do you know at what oxygen concentration the bacteria can't get going? I've seen some peoples cubes have an inch of air above the wort.

As for CB. I stand by my statement that no-chill certainly increases the chance of contamination. Up until now it would have been rare for wort to have been stored in anaerobic conditions. NC almost certainly fullfils this requirement.

cheers

TND

 

[the_new_darren]

I gather it is oxygenless.

I was of the understanding that "squeezing" the air out then sealing were "requirements" of no-chill and storage to stop oxidation.

tnd

 

[bignath]

Without willy raincoats of course.

Lesson: Clean and sanitise your cube. Wear a condom when you bum your mate.

Manticle, i've laughed as much from your posts in this thread, as i have learnt from the info in this thread. Certainly bringing a less serious vibe when it's been needed, whilst still being serious when has been required....

You're on fire fella!

 

[Yob]

Lesson: Clean and sanitise your cube. Wear a condom when you bum your mate.

cleaning monitor, well done :lol:

 

[ekul]

Ideally yes, however to get all that air out is pretty hard, and i'm yet to see one that didn't have at least a little bubble in it. Air gets stuck in the handle when squeezing out the wort and nine times out of ten that air will stay in there. Doesn't seem to have a significant effect on the resultant beer. Thats from my experience and from what i've seen of other guys who cube. Also this is 'cubes', rather than jerry cans. Might be easier to get the air out of the jerry cans.

 

[manticle]

Darren,

I'm going to make an effort to be polite because I'd rather discuss things, adult to adult, in a way that facilitates and furthers knowledge rather than in an antagonistic manner. I find your manner of posting very frustrating but if I give you the benefit of the doubt, I can assume you are concerned for the homebrewing community rather than just trolling, fishing or trying to prick balloons.

Given that you have a reasonable understanding of various microflora (considering your background) what would you estimate the likelihood of botulism toxicity occurring to be, if the no-chill process is followed properly (and by properly I mean with clean cubes, in my preference chemically sanitised)? Theoretically it is a risk yes. I concede that. Do you concede that it is a very, very small risk, unlikely to be borne out in actuality?

NB: Agreeing/conceding doesn't mean you condone the practice or need to accept responsibility if it actually occurs.

 

[jyo]

I have never been able to expel all of the air out of a hot cube. And believe me, I'm a squeezer.

Are commercially available FWK's completely oxygen free? I think it would be nigh on impossible to get all of the air out without spilling out wort all over your knees or protection boots (thongs)

Have you never done a no-chill, Darren?

 

[the_new_darren]

Darren,

I'm going to make an effort to be polite because I'd rather discuss things, adult to adult, in a way that facilitates and furthers knowledge rather than in an antagonistic manner. I find your manner of posting very frustrating but if I give you the benefit of the doubt, I can assume you are concerned for the homebrewing community rather than just trolling, fishing or trying to prick balloons.

Given that you have a reasonable understanding of various microflora (considering your background) what would you estimate the likelihood of botulism toxicity occurring to be, if the no-chill process is followed properly (and by properly I mean with clean cubes, in my preference chemically sanitised)? Theoretically it is a risk yes. I concede that. Do you concede that it is a very, very small risk, unlikely to be borne out in actuality?

NB: Agreeing/conceding doesn't mean you condone the practice or need to accept responsibility if it actually occurs.

Yep, 99% of the time I am shit-stirring. However, having been around several homebrewers over a number of years "sanitation" makes that 1% possibility possible.

Many HBers cannot afford to buy expensive chemical sanitisers and there are also many who are completely lazy/not that worried.

So far I hear that the hypothesis is "it is impossible and cannot happen"

I am proposing the null hypothesis that "it is possible under the correct conditions"

Only time will tell I guess.

Lets hope it doesn't happen....because if it does, it will the perfect opportunity for the government to ban the hobby!!

cheers

the_new_darren

PS: Thanks for the question

 

[bradsbrew]

Wouldn't you get an amount of oxygen into the wort during transfer? And would this amount be enough? You are also never going to squeeze all the air out of a cube, unless it doesnt have a handle.


O/T good on you Darren for working for 10+ years with all those ailments. Oneday you may even find a cure for yourself.


Cheers

 

[manticle]

@TnD

Thankyou for a reasonable answer.

I agree with you that under the right conditions it is theoretically possible. Myself, I would prefer to recommend that people step up their sanitation and cleaning rather than recommend against a practice based on the idea that they are dirty brewers.

If they are - that issue needs to be addressed before chilling methods. Some home canners and sausage makers are possibly lazy or 'not that worried'. It's not a smart position to take, purely based on the fact that you may make horrible crap, even if you don't get life threatening illnesses.

I think the shit stirring does more harm than good to your cause but I appreciate that you are not simply trolling to get a rise.

 

[seamad]

Starsan 7 c/ L when diluted for use
Wow thats expensive

 

[the_new_darren]

I think drk would be proud of how I have kept this thread alive

Sea Mad, Whats the half-life of strsan diluted in mains water? Chances are it does all its work cleaning up the crap in your lines.

Bradsbrew, Yep there will be a little oxygen transfered. Problem is that the wort is 100C + and solubility at that is zero, therefore in actuality no O2 will be transferred or will be expelled when the cube is "squeezed"

d

 

[DUANNE]

I think drk would be proud of how I have kept this thread alive

Sea Mad, Whats the half-life of strsan diluted in mains water? Chances are it does all its work cleaning up the crap in your lines.

Bradsbrew, Yep there will be a little oxygen transfered. Problem is that the wort is 100C + and solubility at that is zero, therefore in actuality no O2 will be transferred or will be expelled when the cube is "squeezed"

d

so im guessing that this means that hsa really is a load of crap? thanks tnd for putting my mind at ease and freeing me up to splash my wort around as much as i like when filling my nc cube because i now know it cannot absord any oxygen at boil temps.phew though i might have been doing something wrong to.

 

[jyo]

Problem is that the wort is 100C + and solubility at that is zero, therefore in actuality no O2 will be transferred or will be expelled when the cube is "squeezed"

I'm not nit-picking, well maybe a little, but the wort will not, ever, be 100'c when entering a cube. There is also some initial splashing involved until the wort is above your transfer hose in the cube. Arguing with conjecture is pointless, mate.
Most people wait until convection settles, then whirlpool, then wait, then transfer to the cube via silicon hose (which will also reduce the temp). I have measured the temp in the kettle during transfer which is above 85'.