Throw Out Your Cubes

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My experience suggest that VERY LITTLE heat is lost with silicon hoses. They are never hot to touch even when recirculating during the boil.

There will be very little dissolution of 02 at 85C and as I mentioned before, the practice of NC involves removing as much headspace as possible by expelling and sealing the cube.

Really, I couldn't give a Ross's arse whether you do or dont.

Just allowing the non-microbiologists to determine the risks.

cheers

tnd
 
My experience suggest that VERY LITTLE heat is lost with silicon hoses. They are never hot to touch even when recirculating during the boil.

tnd

Darren, again, this is just not true. When siphoning 80'+ wort through silicone hose and not using gloves...it is bloody hot.

j_y_o out Infinity.
 
Yes jyo, that's another example of where our own reality and experiences must require a really long good hard look, I'll pay more attention next time and perhaps even note that the really hot sensation in the hands is just a symptom of yet another blasphemous brewing practice for which we are in fact burning in hell.
 
The silicon is relatively cold ;)

Anything else would be sizzling hot.

You can always hold onto the hose for at least a few seconds when asdjusting your clamps etc
 
I lose 4* in the silicon hose between the hlt and mash tun(about half a metre) and my hose does get hot wheni tranfer to the cube at the end of the boil, i must be doing everything completely wrong.
 
Without willy raincoats of course.

Lesson: Clean and sanitise your cube. Wear a condom when you bum your mate.


hahaha - I usually hate the LOL, but this time it is justified.
Classic piece of advice. Could be a line from the Inbetweeners.
 
Fellas, I think its time to chill...........

Wes

Agreed - fell like it is the 90's and the HBD all over again. Time to go sit in a corner and rock some ...

Scotty
 
This is completely irrelevent to the botulsm argument but just for the sake of clarity.

You can froth at the mouth as much as you want Darren but I don't intend to drop to your level of personal insult.

Final comment on this.

FYI, 30% of HIV transmission is in heterosexual community.

HIV transmission in Australia occurs primarily through sexual contact between men. Around 65% of people newly diagnosed with HIV in 2009 were among men who have *** with men; 28.7% were exposed through heterosexual contact; 2.3% were due to injecting drug use; and a further 3% were men with a history of both injecting drug use and *** with other men.

http://www.avert.org/aids-hiv-australia.htm

70%+ isn't the vast majority then?


HBV is distributed evenly between males and females with the asian population "generally" having higher incidence due to mother-to-child transmission.

HCV is most commonly associated with IV drug use, tattoos, and as I mentioned before, pre-HCV testing transfussion. IT IS NOT SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED.

I never said it was.Based on reported cases, hepatitis B and hepatitis C transmission in Australia continued to occur predominantly among people with a recent history of injecting drug use.

http://www.med.unsw.edu.au/NCHECRweb.nsf/r...reports2011.pdf

Out
 
This is completely irrelevent to the botulsm argument but just for the sake of clarity.

You can froth at the mouth as much as you want Darren but I don't intend to drop to your level of personal insult.

Final comment on this.



Out



Isn't that what I said? 30% hetrosexual transmittion of HIV is significantly high!!

As to what it has to do with botulism, Hep C and HIV were only discovered as disease causing pathogens in the mid-1980's. Prior to that (one hundred years) blood transfusions were performed routinely and were classed as safe.

The "recent" emergence of no-chill might suggests that it may have not been around long enough for that rare event to occur.
 
Guys there's 15 pages and over 200 posts in this thread, mostly it has been on topic and quite interesting, please lets not let it run off like so many others.


Batz
 
Darren, I'm a Molecular Biologist (Ph.D. in Biochemistry & Cell Biology) by trade.. but with no official microbiology major (other than being a Molecular Biologist and using various forms of E.coli and S.cerevisiae as my work tools). I wonder if you can help flesh out the Botulism point further -- not just from a NC perspective..

#1 Prevalence - is it out there, are we likely to encounter it here in Australia?

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum" said:
Clostridium botulinum type A was found to be present in soil samples from mountain areas of Victoria.[22] Type B organisms were detected in marine mud from Tasmania.[23] Type A C. botulinum have been found in Sydney suburbs and types A and B were isolated from urban areas. In a well defined area of the Darling-Downs region of Queensland, a study showed the prevalence and persistence of C. botulinum type B after many cases of botulism in horses.
Sounds to me like it's soil borne on land and at sea.

#2 How can we minimise exposure to it, so it doesn't come into contact with our brew gear?
Don't brew on dirt or in the ocean. Keep dogs away... keep your brew area rodent-proof.

#3 How can we destroy it?
As far as I can tell, the only way to kill them is by Autoclave for 20min @ 121C..
I've emailed Five Star Chemical Co. to clarify, but I don't think any of their products will be active against Clostridium botulinum endospores. But I'll wait and see what they have to say about that.

#4 What situations in a brew house could anaerobic conditions be produced.
Wikipedia tells me that C.b. is isolated from samples with <2% O2. Does NoChill get O2 down to <2%? Could a blast of filtered air put enough O2 into NC wort to stave off any C.b. infection *and* avoid hot side aeration? What about fermenting wort? What is the % oxygen in a fermenting wort once fermentation has ceased?

#5 What regular practices in brewing would destroy it or inhibit its growth?
Obviously aeration of the chilled wort prior to fermentation will help, providing a significant infection/sporulation hasn't already happened.

I see this on Wikipedia, which has me wondering if we have little to be concerned about, but it is not referenced:

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_botulinum" said:
Growth of the bacterium can be prevented by high acidity, high ratio of dissolved sugar, high levels of oxygen, very low levels of moisture or storage at temperatures below 3C (38F) for type A. For example in a low acid, canned vegetable such as green beans that are not heated hot enough to kill the spores (i.e., a pressurized environment) may provide an oxygen free medium for the spores to grow and produce the toxin. On the other hand, pickles are sufficiently acidic to prevent growth; even if the spores are present, they pose no danger to the consumer. Honey, corn syrup, and other sweeteners may contain spores but the spores cannot grow in a highly concentrated sugar solution; however, when a sweetener is diluted in the low oxygen, low acid digestive system of an infant, the spores can grow and produce toxin. As soon as infants begin eating solid food, the digestive juices become too acidic for the bacterium to grow.

NC and Chilled worts are high in sugar but without a reference from that Wikipedia entry for the above statement, I don't know what "highly concentrated sugar solution" actually means. That might be enough to inhibit growth, which would certainly help me sleep better at night because disinfecting it at home, sounds like an impossible mission.

Cheers for any additional insights..
 
There is also a patent floating around about hop's preservative qualities being effective against CB
 
Seeing as the thread is remaining on its topic, Darren has discovered a new lease on reasonable response and some things that I think are genuinely useful are being talked about:

One thing Darren and others may not have considered is that HDPE is in fact far from impervious to oxygen transmission, and becomes drastically less so at higher temperatures.

So while its at 100C and its certainly not retaining any dissolved oxygen, there's also no chance any spores are germinating at that temp either - but as it cools it will start to absorb oxygen, so while its certainly going to be a lower oxygen environment than an open container - its not at all likely to be anything close to actually anerobic.

The levels of oxygen themselves during the really dangerous "warm" phase are (i crunched the gas transmission rate numbers one time when i was properly bored, and no I dont have the figures, lost in a hard drive crash and I'm not doing it again) not in and of themselves likely to be so high as to completely rule out germination and growth of CB, and certainly its possible there might be pockets of unmixed wort that constitute anerobic micro environments, but they do present another significant hurdle to infection and the levels will rise with time.

Because of the high permeability of hot HDPE to oxygen - squeezing out the excess air in the top of a cube/jerry is simply about limiting hot wort oxidation in the only real fashion its controllable in the situation, it's not about eliminating it which is pretty much impossible, it's just about trying to shift as much of it as possible to times where the wort is cool enough to minmise the damage - and its not about dissolved oxygen at all.

A few of the recent comments in this thread that mention HSA etc seem to misunderstand the difference between oxidation and oygenation in wort.
 
The difference between no chill and conventional brewing aswe all know is that with no chill the boiled wort is allowed to cool slowlyunder (hopefully) sanitised conditions and then fermented later. The hypothetical botulism problem could ariseif the wort and/or the container is contaminated with C. botulinum spores andthese grow into vegetative forms (bacteria) which then produce toxin in theanaerobic environment.

What follows is an excerpt from BYO ("http://www.byo.com/stories/techniques/article/indices/30-extract-brewing/418-can-botulism-spores-grow-in-concentrated-extract-with-its-high-sugar-content") that addresses why this doesn't happen in liquid malt extract.

" lets discuss why brewers do not need to spend any time at all worrying about the growth of Clostridium botulinum in the malt extract. Malt extract, whether liquid or dry, is concentrated by removing water. One key attribute of food products used togauge their susceptibility to spoilage is a property known as water activity or AW. Pure water has a water activity of 1.0 and as solids content increases the AW decreases. The definition of AW is not important here, but relates to equilibrium relative humidity. If you want to read more there is a bunch ofinformation about water activity online and in food science books.

At any rate, Clostridium botulinum is not a problem in foods with an AW less than 0.93 because it doesnt grow. The water activity of liquid malt extract (LME) is somewhere around 0.60 depending on its concentration. Honey has an AW between 0.55 and0.60, so it stands to reason that liquid malt extract with a similar concentration is going to be in the same range. Dried malt extract has an AW ofabout 0.20 making it very shelf stable from a microbiological view. You arecorrect that liquid malt extract is not pressure canned because there is nosafety concern requiring it to be."

Now I've been unable to find what the AW of unfermented wort is (still looking though and I'd also like to know the reference for the 0.93 value but its not stated), however looking at the figures quoted above it maybe reasonable to assume it is less than 0.93.

If thats the case we could have an answer.



edit: cleaned up embedded formatting
 
Now I've been unable to find what the AW of unfermented wort is (still looking though and I'd also like to know the reference for the 0.93 value but its not stated), however looking at the figures quoted above it maybe reasonable to assume it is less than 0.93.

If thats the case we could have an answer.



edit: cleaned up embedded formatting

Should be able to work it out with info provided here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_activity
 
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