Recipedb - Coopers Pale Ale Clone

[PhilA]

Hi Andrew
I just brewed your Cooper's again with new hop's I think the last batch had old hop's in it , anyway I was wondering if you have tryed only dry hoping the cooper's becauce the bought one has no bittering taste at all , what are your thoughts on that ?
Cheers Phil :icon_cheers:

 

[JestersDarts]

Hi Andrew
I just brewed your Cooper's again with new hop's I think the last batch had old hop's in it , anyway I was wondering if you have tryed only dry hoping the cooper's becauce the bought one has no bittering taste at all , what are your thoughts on that ?
Cheers Phil :icon_cheers:

oh but it does...

Anyway - I rekon i'll give this a shot for my next brewday. Cheers for the recipe.
Will give me some practice at reculturing the yeast too.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Hi Andrew
I just brewed your Cooper's again with new hop's I think the last batch had old hop's in it , anyway I was wondering if you have tryed only dry hoping the cooper's becauce the bought one has no bittering taste at all , what are your thoughts on that ?
Cheers Phil :icon_cheers:

There is a fair bit of bittering in Pale Ale, 28 ibu from memory so you will definitely need the bittering addition, however if you are chasing more flavour from the hops then by all means try a later addition or even add all the hops at say the 30 minute or 20 minute mark, but you will have to calculate more hops into the equation to take into account the loss in IBU. And it won't be like a Coopers Pale Ale.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[MHB]

"Clone Recipes" always bemuse me; the name implies that you are trying to make a faithful copy of a beer you admire. Otherwise it should be called something else.
Everything I can put together about CPA and most other beers by Coopers leads me to believe they are incredibly simple beers, all be it very well made and you haven't got a chance of getting within Cooee if you aren't using Coopers Yeast.

Had the pleasure of doing the tour back in June, the tour guide said "the Pale and Sparkling are the same with different amounts of water". Take that to mean Mashed with different L:G ratios. That they were all bittered with POR and that the same yeast is used throughout all the Ales they produce.

I strongly suspect that CPA and CSA are both SMASH beers; that there is no Wheat, Crystal or Sugar in them, just Ale Malt and a good bittering addition.

If you do the numbers it all stands up, the colour, gravity mouth-feel, aroma it all makes sense, if you can brew.

MHB

 

[AndrewQLD]

"Clone Recipes" always bemuse me; the name implies that you are trying to make a faithful copy of a beer you admire. Otherwise it should be called something else.
Everything I can put together about CPA and most other beers by Coopers leads me to believe they are incredibly simple beers, all be it very well made and you haven't got a chance of getting within Cooee if you aren't using Coopers Yeast.

Had the pleasure of doing the tour back in June, the tour guide said "the Pale and Sparkling are the same with different amounts of water". Take that to mean Mashed with different L:G ratios. That they were all bittered with POR and that the same yeast is used throughout all the Ales they produce.

I strongly suspect that CPA and CSA are both SMASH beers; that there is no Wheat, Crystal or Sugar in them, just Ale Malt and a good bittering addition.

If you do the numbers it all stands up, the colour, gravity mouth-feel, aroma it all makes sense, if you can brew.

MHB

And sadly brewery tour guides are renowned for knowing SFA about the beers they are talking about although I do agree it is a fairly simplistic brew and the no sugar comment is spot on as is the single hop addition. However I disagree with the single malt theory.

Andrew

 

[bignath]

I strongly suspect that CPA and CSA are both SMASH beers; that there is no Wheat, Crystal or Sugar in them, just Ale Malt and a good bittering addition.

Yeah i'd been thinking this too. After trying some more complex beers, going back to the good old faithful green and red labelled ales, makes me think that they are ridiculously simple SMASH beers.

Only thing i'm not sure about though is the sugar. I was under the impression that they used a small quantity of sugar or some dry enzyme thing to get the FG to around 1.005. Probably mash lowish too?

ATM, most of my AG's finish at around 1.008/1.010.

 

[MHB]

And sadly brewery tour guides are renowned for knowing SFA about the beers they are talking about although I do agree it is a fairly simplistic brew and the no sugar comment is spot on as is the single hop addition. However I disagree with the single malt theory.
Andrew

Why?
When I do the colour calculation (allowing for kettle colour development over 60 minutes) I get 8-10 EBC for the PA, pretty much exactly what the beer comes in at. One of the (for me) fundamentals of cloning a beer well it's a bit like Ockham's Razor the simplest explanation that explains all of the facts is probably the right one (apologies to Fr William for the egregious truncation) A SMASH explains everything I see and taste.

And yes I've had some very interesting tour guides, Frank at Coopers knew his stuff, most memorable was a girl at CUB, holding up a jar of hops labelled Willamette, she was standing in front of the production flow diagram that clearly showed the bitterness being added after lagering trying to tell us that "These' hops got put in the kettle as if CUB use hops - all extract!

MHB

 

[AndrewQLD]

Why?
When I do the colour calculation (allowing for kettle colour development over 60 minutes) I get 8-10 EBC for the PA, pretty much exactly what the beer comes in at. One of the (for me) fundamentals of cloning a beer well it's a bit like Ockham's Razor the simplest explanation that explains all of the facts is probably the right one (apologies to Fr William for the egregious truncation) A SMASH explains everything I see and taste.

And yes I've had some very interesting tour guides, Frank at Coopers knew his stuff, most memorable was a girl at CUB, holding up a jar of hops labelled Willamette, she was standing in front of the production flow diagram that clearly showed the bitterness being added after lagering trying to tell us that "These' hops got put in the kettle as if CUB use hops - all extract!

MHB

Do a search on here MHB for the White Board thread, seems pretty obvious to me that more than one malt is used in the sparkling ale as well as the Pale Ale. After converting from their volumes and taking into account our poor efficiencies compared to theirs the numbers add up.
I'm a bit surprised you can claim there is no wheat malt in the recipe, your taste buds must be much better than mine given the low quantities involved.
And yes Frank did know his stuff, I had several conversations with him in which he was kind enough to refer back to the brewery manager for more detail, this was especially useful in my salt addition calculations.

Andrew

 

[np1962]

If you do the numbers it all stands up, the colour, gravity mouth-feel, aroma it all makes sense, if you can brew.
MHB

Oh shit! I think Graham Sanders has hacked MHB's account

 

[MHB]

It's hardly case of being right or wrong, just about how designing a clone brew.
The whole implication of applying Ockham's Razor is that I can't taste any wheat in there so why would I put it in; nothing about the beer suggests or requires the addition. I don't know for a fact that there isn't any wheat or crystal for that matter. But as a part of beer design philosophy I would always start at the most basic possible recipe that satisfies the beer specifications and build up from there at need.
If you think you detect Wheat then use it, if you taste Crystal or the colour profile suggests it, again it becomes a required part of the recipe conversely if you can't taste them and lacking evidence for their presence; then they shouldn't be used.
MHB

PS
Oh the "Whiteboard"

Coopers brew on a Meura 2000 Mash Filter. One of the rules for using a mash filter is that the grain bill must always be the same size, add up the info on the "White Board", again to quote frank Coopers mash in 10.5 Ton, up to 8 times a day. It's possible that there was some data from the old brewhouse, but it's going to be way out of date.
M

PPS
Anyone got a copy of the whiteboard, not a copy of what someone says is on it, an actual copy? I would like to see it.
M

Oh shit! I think Graham Sanders has hacked MHB's account

PPPS
Sorry about that got rushed, been out brought a car, served several dozen customers, unloaded a pallet load of stock...
Wasn't meant quite the way it sounds, more like it all stands up when put together with good brewing practice
M

PPPPS
It's a bugger trying to write a coherent post over a couple of hours
Mark

 

[AndrewQLD]

You will find a full colour photo of the white board in the book "Amber and Black" by Willie Simpson published 2001. And yes I do have the book, sadly I don't have a scanner or I'd post it up for you.

Either way, I'm pretty happy with my attempts at "cloning" this brew while at the same time using as close as possible to the authentic ingredients, despite the fact that I can't perceive them in tasting the beer :lol: .

Andrew

 

[juzz1981]

Hi Guys,

Is it a necessity to add the gypsum, epsom salt, calcium salt and yeast nutrient?

And yes I am a AG novice, and yes its probably a spastic question

edit: Oh and should I really try and obtain some PoR flowers, I have some pellets in the freezer but probably 12months old...

Also I dont have dark crystal but I do have stacks of medium..... would this be ok?

 

[AndrewQLD]

Juzz, the salt additions are based on my local profile and you would more than likely not require them. As far as the crystal malt goes I prefer the dark crystal but medium will work if you add half as much again.
POR flowers give a smoother bittering profile in my opinion.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

Juzz, the salt additions are based on my local profile and you would more than likely not require them. As far as the crystal malt goes I prefer the dark crystal but medium will work if you add half as much again.
POR flowers give a smoother bittering profile in my opinion.

Cheers
Andrew

Sorry if this has already been asked but I read the whole thread a few months ago and didn't want to start again!!

Any opinion on what the best fermenting temp is for your clone, I have done one already and was great but i could have got more out of the yeast.

 

[manticle]

I will be doing some variation of this recipe in the next week or two. The dark crystal addition of 30 g is intriguing.

 

[beerdrinkingbob]

I will be doing some variation of this recipe in the next week or two. The dark crystal addition of 30 g is intriguing.

I thought so too but the slight flavour blends really well with the coopers yeast, my 2c

 

[manticle]

I tend to look at recipes as a guide and generate my own (the ex chef in me) but I might bite the bullet and brew this one as is.

It will be the second one I've done that way but I do have plans to push out a few of the alts from the db and warren's 3 shades of stout - maybe I should add them to my brewing resolutions for 2011.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Sorry if this has already been asked but I read the whole thread a few months ago and didn't want to start again!!

Any opinion on what the best fermenting temp is for your clone, I have done one already and was great but i could have got more out of the yeast.

I usually ferment @ 16-18 and get good results although I have pushed this up to 21 without too many problems also.

 

[Mayor of Mildura]

I've made this a few times now. each time using a different crystal (through necessity). It is amazing the change in flavour that such a small addition gives.

The dark crystal addition of 30 g is intriguing.

 

[QldKev]

I tend to look at recipes as a guide and generate my own (the ex chef in me) but I might bite the bullet and brew this one as is.

It will be the second one I've done that way but I do have plans to push out a few of the alts from the db and warren's 3 shades of stout - maybe I should add them to my brewing resolutions for 2011.

Hey manticle

The CPA I sent you last lotto was 100% AndrewQld's recipie - no sugar version
His exact grain bill, BB Ale, Wheat and Crystal
Including his salt additions (I live close to him so our water is the same)
POR Flowers
The CPA Yeast culture AndrewQld orginally grew up about 1.5/2 years ago
Fermented at 18c
About the only difference I don't use the yeast nutrient.

This is such an awsome simple beer.

Kev