Plane shot down with 27 Aussies on board.

[browndog]

Interesting story here: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/21/guilt-insinuation-paul-craig-roberts/

"Why hasn’t Washington joined Russian President Putin in calling for an objective, non-politicized international investigation by experts of the case of the Malaysian jetliner?

The Russian government continues to release facts, including satellite photos showing the presence of Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missiles in locations from which the airliner could have been brought down by the missile system and documentation that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet rapidly approached the Malaysian airliner prior to its downing. The head of the Operations Directorate of Russian military headquarters said at a Moscow press conference today (July 21) that the presence of the Ukrainian military jet is confirmed by the Rostov monitoring center."


Despite what mainstream media would have you believe Russia have already submitted a lot of their findings to the UN on the crash, the sad thing is these victims are caught in a game of war. I doubt we'll ever know what happened just like the weapons of mass destruction, the chemical weapons in Syria, and even the US backed take down of Gaddafi.. A shame more people don't wonder why the US needs it's fingers in everyone's pie or should I say sovereign nation?.. I'm unsure if the words transparent and democratic exist in the world today, I cannot watch the news merely for the fact of how numbing it is to hear the ill-informed spin doctors spread their mass hysteria followed by the latest celebrity gossip.. What times we live in! when US security intelligence services are using Twitter!

The US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Every Australian should be thankful of the efforts of the American Marines in WW2 that ultimately saved Australia from a Japanese invasion. I'm bloody well sure the mothers of those that died on all those shitholes in the Pacific wondered what their boys were doing there.

 

[mje1980]

What the hell has that got to do with anything?. I certainly appreciate the USA's support of us in many things, but what has that got to do with the comment you quoted??

 

[motch02]

The US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Every Australian should be thankful of the efforts of the American Marines in WW2 that ultimately saved Australia from a Japanese invasion. I'm bloody well sure the mothers of those that died on all those shitholes in the Pacific wondered what their boys were doing there.

Having a whole nation blind to the fact that you've led more foreign invasions and funded copious regime changes over the past 50 years is probably thanks enough.

Just look at the Iranian revolution, over threw the democratically elected Government and it back fired throwing it in to the Islamic state it is to day. Not to mention the sales of arms to both Iraq and Iran during their war.. And we are seeing it right here in the Ukraine with a nice IMF loan hanging over them that is calling for drastic changes in Parliament that have caused the removal of cabinet and Yatsenyuk removing himself..

 

[browndog]

What the hell has that got to do with anything?. I certainly appreciate the USA's support of us in many things, but what has that got to do with the comment you quoted??

Just saying re the weapons of mass destruction, US take down of Gaddafi, etc. The US is quick to be blamed for all the worlds ails but also one of the first to be asked why they are not getting involved in others business.

 

[Liam_snorkel]

Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say "Ni" at will to old ladies.

 

[manticle]

I think it's the selectiveness of their involvement that is mostly under question which is really a questioning of the motives behind involvement. Regardless it's a big stretch to suggest that any of the less savoury actions they've been involved in during the 20th and 21st century should be whitewashed due to their assistance during World War II. A lot has happened in that time.

 

[Eagleburger]

The US will only make a bed where she can derive some benefit for herself.

 

[manticle]

Unlike our OWN altruistic government of course.

 

[Coalminer]

The US is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't. Every Australian should be thankful of the efforts of the American Marines in WW2 that ultimately saved Australia from a Japanese invasion. I'm bloody well sure the mothers of those that died on all those shitholes in the Pacific wondered what their boys were doing there.

America was totally isolationist during WW2, didn't give a rats arse, and only got involved when Japan hit Pearl Harbour. If not for that event we would be all speaking Japanese now.
And now another Liberal PM wants to get us into a war zone by sending AFP in to guard the area and Aus troops in to protect them.
That can only go wrong

 

[schrodinger]

[SIZE=medium]I’m not changing the definition of the words at all – but you are. You are the sophist here, not me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]My definition of ‘conspiracy’ and ‘propaganda’ are entirely orthodox. Look up any dictionary.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Your meaning is the sophism dating from the 1960s used to put down any viewpoint you don’t agree with,while avoiding rational argument. It’s a cheap hit-and-run approach. [/SIZE]

No, what you're doing is the very definition of sophistry. Your definitions are literally accurate but not orthodox. "Conspiracy theory" and "propaganda" are universally understood to refer to things much grander and more sinister than minor schemes or polemics by one or a few random morons.

And it's you who avoids rational argument -- I responded to your absurd claim with an argument based on reason, namely that reason says simpler solutions are more likely, and that reason rejects arbitary, untestable assumptions, and you responded with bait-and-switch sophistry by pretending the loaded term you used (conspiracy theory) wasn't really loaded when you used it.

The whole allure of conspiracy theories (in the sense of the term understood by the rest of us) is that, like religions, they're inherently impossible to disprove. They define themselves out of testability, because they can draw on a bottomless well of nameless, as-yet-unidentified conspirators:

"What's that? The records contradict my theory? Well, somebody must have changed them."
"What's that? They found the rocket launcher in a rebel's ute, and it was Russian-made? Well, the CIA must have paid off the rebel and given him a US-made replica of a Russian launcher."
"What's that? A fossil's been dated to 10,000 years ago? Well, the devil must have put it there to tempt me out of my belief in Genesis."

The world consists of two kinds of people: those who take comfort in beliefs not grounded in evidence, and those who find such beliefs comical.

 

[browndog]

America was totally isolationist during WW2, didn't give a rats arse, and only got involved when Japan hit Pearl Harbour. If not for that event we would be all speaking Japanese now.
And now another Liberal PM wants to get us into a war zone by sending AFP in to guard the area and Aus troops in to protect them.
That can only go wrong

Agreed, nothing can turn back time. The Leaders need to tread very lightly.

 

[Eagleburger]

I may rightly be accused of being simplistic, but I am not going to let the neighbours rottweiller, chew my ball, that landed in his yard. At the first instance, a sizable force from a country with a stake in the incident, should have secured the scene. The main reason being, force is something the locals understand and respect.

 

[Dave70]

America was totally isolationist during WW2, didn't give a rats arse, and only got involved when Japan hit Pearl Harbour. If not for that event we would be all speaking Japanese now.

So?
At least we'd be bilingual and produce a range of quality motor vehicles and electronic equipment.
Whats the problem?

 

[goomboogo]

So?
At least we'd be bilingual and produce a range of quality motor vehicles and electronic equipment.
Whats the problem?

The problem? Miso, more Miso. That would be a problem.

 

[browndog]

So?
At least we'd be bilingual and produce a range of quality motor vehicles and electronic equipment.
Whats the problem?

Mmmmm long working hrs too. But I never meant to derail this thread. Lets keep it on topic and respectful.

 

[Dave70]

The problem? Miso, more Miso. That would be a problem.

We developed a taste for Vegemite. At breakfast time. Miso would be a doddle.

 

[mje1980]

Yeah great idea, sending foreign troops in as a knee jerk reaction before any fact is established. Great idea


I was replying to eagle burger

 

[motch02]

Yeah great idea, sending foreign troops in as a knee jerk reaction before any fact is established. Great idea


I was replying to eagle burger

haha do you want to see some facts? some real hard evidence?

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe3_1406258203

Just assertions with no basis!, shameful!

 

[pk.sax]

And now another Liberal PM wants to get us into a war zone by sending AFP in to guard the area and Aus troops in to protect them.
That can only go wrong

Downsizing of the public service.

 

[Eagleburger]

Yeah great idea, sending foreign troops in as a knee jerk reaction before any fact is established. Great idea


I was replying to eagle burger

Airliner shot down in a rebel held area of a country undergoing revolution. established as fact within 12hrs.

maybe its just me, but negotiating with rebels with no single command hierarchy, sounds like an anxious and a probably drawn out experience. Due to the Netherlands being extreme left and their military was washing their pink frocks that day, that is what they got.