Plane shot down with 27 Aussies on board.

[Feldon]

Conspiracy theories? Of course its a conspiracy.

A conspiracy is simply two or more people plotting an illegal act. Is anybody suggesting only one person was involved in bring this plane down – a sole assassin?

Theory? Of course, its all theoretical until the investigation by ICAO (look it up) is conducted and the facts are established.
So at this point in time everyone’s viewpoint is a conspiracy theory – get used to it.

At least the Russians have come forward with hard data and handed it to the EU for analysis. The US and Ukraine have provided diddly squat at the mo but are hell bent on telling the world who did it. Now that is disrespectful. Time to cough up.

As for propaganda, same thing goes. All viewpoints expressed are propaganda – ie. an attempt to propagate ideas. Everything I and you write is propaganda.

We are all conspiracy theorists.

 

[Black Devil Dog]

There are many families grieving for loved ones lost in this tragedy, some of them are members of this forum and might possibly be reading our comments.

I just feel that we should be mindful of that when posting and leave the conspiracy theories out of it.

 

[Feldon]

The mods are happy leaving the thread as it is.

 

[black_labb]

I spent 3 months in the backwaters of Siberia and have nothing but good things to say about the people. The everyday people have little trust in the government after coming out of communism. I also met quite a few people from other ex USSR states working on the railway lines or civil engineering in remote areas and was impressed with the way people mixed happily and so well and appreciated their differences. The everyday person doesn't have anything to do with the governments reaches for power and doesn't likely support it.

The Russian Government is corrupt and has their own agenda, just like all other governments. I suspect they just aren't as practiced at hiding things and sugarcoating stuff when their is free media around. Compared to the amount of wars America and allies have been in since WWII to increase or protect their influence on different regions and Russia's biggest failing is it's very blunt public relations. I don't like the way the Russian Government supports a lot of intolerance but then again Australia voted in Mr Rabbit.

On the issue with the passenger jet being taken down, I can't see anyone who could stand to lose more from this than the Russian government. How could it benefit them at all?

 

[schrodinger]

Conspiracy theories? Of course its a conspiracy.

A conspiracy is simply two or more people plotting an illegal act. Is anybody suggesting only one person was involved in bring this plane down – a sole assassin?

Theory? Of course, its all theoretical until the investigation by ICAO (look it up) is conducted and the facts are established.
So at this point in time everyone’s viewpoint is a conspiracy theory – get used to it.

At least the Russians have come forward with hard data and handed it to the EU for analysis. The US and Ukraine have provided diddly squat at the mo but are hell bent on telling the world who did it. Now that is disrespectful. Time to cough up.

As for propaganda, same thing goes. All viewpoints expressed are propaganda – ie. an attempt to propagate ideas. Everything I and you write is propaganda.

We are all conspiracy theorists.

This is just transparent sophistry -- changing the defintion or interpretation of terms as a method of argument. We all know what we mean when we say "conspiracy theory" and "propaganda".

 

[Airgead]

Hanlon's Razor - Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Someone, somewhere for some reason, fucked up big time. We don't need to invent a conspiracy by Russia, Ukraine or anyone. Simple human stupidity is enough to explain it.

 

[pcmfisher]

Feldon, on 23 Jul 2014 - 8:23 PM, said:

Conspiracy theories? Of course its a conspiracy.

A conspiracy is simply two or more people plotting an illegal act. Is anybody suggesting only one person was involved in bring this plane down – a sole assassin?

Theory? Of course, its all theoretical until the investigation by ICAO (look it up) is conducted and the facts are established.
So at this point in time everyone’s viewpoint is a conspiracy theory – get used to it.

At least the Russians have come forward with hard data and handed it to the EU for analysis. The US and Ukraine have provided diddly squat at the mo but are hell bent on telling the world who did it. Now that is disrespectful. Time to cough up.

As for propaganda, same thing goes. All viewpoints expressed are propaganda – ie. an attempt to propagate ideas. Everything I and you write is propaganda.

We are all conspiracy theorists.

Just because someone can think something up does not make it credible or even possible.
It is not equally correct until proven wrong.

I assert MH17 was shot down be a flying saucer.
Should this idea be on equal footing to the claim it was shot down by Russian separatists, until you can prove that it wasn't ?

 

[Feldon]

This is just transparent sophistry -- changing the defintion or interpretation of terms as a method of argument. We all know what we mean when we say "conspiracy theory" and "propaganda".

[SIZE=medium]I’m not changing the definition of the words at all – but you are. You are the sophist here, not me.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]My definition of ‘conspiracy’ and ‘propaganda’ are entirely orthodox. Look up any dictionary.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Your meaning is the sophism dating from the 1960s used to put down any viewpoint you don’t agree with,while avoiding rational argument. It’s a cheap hit-and-run approach. [/SIZE]

 

[Feldon]

Just because someone can think something up does not make it credible or even possible.
It is not equally correct until proven wrong.

I assert MH17 was shot down be a flying saucer.
Should this idea be on equal footing to the claim it was shot down by Russian separatists, until you can prove that it wasn't ?

I agree entirely. Different views need to be assessed to see what weight they hold, both on their own and balanced against other competing theories. At the moment the entire US case against Russia comes from a few tweets and social media. If they have anything more they are not forthcoming with it. Yet the Russians have.

 

[Mardoo]

I assert MH17 was shot down be a flying saucer.
Should this idea be on equal footing to the claim it was shot down by Russian separatists, until you can prove that it wasn't ?

Only if you imply it was Obama's shape-changing lizard Secret Service guardians who provided the flying saucer.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

If only they wore colanders on their heads....



But still....regardless of the wanderings in this thread....the whole event is most unfortunate, and we should always remember that before we go of on weird conspiracy tangents

 

[Mardoo]

Yep. Not totally happy to have raised humor here. Drew lost his folks.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Humour is part of the way Australians deal with tragedy. As long as it is respectfull.

 

[bradsbrew]

The Dutch have at least given a bit of respect and dignity back to the victims. Lining streets to pay respect to the ones that have been returned.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Will be interesting to see how the Chinese go with tracking down the other lost flight.

I hope they do find that plane

 

[booargy]

Humour is part of the way Australians deal with tragedy. As long as it is respectfull.

Humor is a way of ignoring the bigger and more complex picture that we don't understand. Not everything is black or white.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

We, as in us, will never know the big picture

 

[browndog]

Being a parent and knowing the love associated with it, it makes my blood boil and breaks my heart at the same time to think of the poor innocent children who's lives were so casually snuffed out in this tragedy (and the tragedy occurring in Palestine) it's just so wrong. While I admire the parents of those three lovely kids from Melbourne who spoke so eloquently, I fear I would become an angel of wrath.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I agree wholeheartedly with browndog it has now got to the stage I cannot watch the news it is either innocent kids getting killed in the Gaza strip, the innocents getting killed by car bombs in Baghdad and then this Malaysian air disaster.
On top of that we have a bunch of weak politicians in the EU thinking primarily about the trading position with Russia rather than those who's life was cut short the shooting down of that aircraft, and moreover I have not seen what I would regard as political activists guarding the crash site, they look more like mercenaries.

 

[motch02]

Interesting story here: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2014/07/21/guilt-insinuation-paul-craig-roberts/

"Why hasn’t Washington joined Russian President Putin in calling for an objective, non-politicized international investigation by experts of the case of the Malaysian jetliner?

The Russian government continues to release facts, including satellite photos showing the presence of Ukrainian Buk anti-aircraft missiles in locations from which the airliner could have been brought down by the missile system and documentation that a Ukrainian SU-25 fighter jet rapidly approached the Malaysian airliner prior to its downing. The head of the Operations Directorate of Russian military headquarters said at a Moscow press conference today (July 21) that the presence of the Ukrainian military jet is confirmed by the Rostov monitoring center."


Despite what mainstream media would have you believe Russia have already submitted a lot of their findings to the UN on the crash, the sad thing is these victims are caught in a game of war. I doubt we'll ever know what happened just like the weapons of mass destruction, the chemical weapons in Syria, and even the US backed take down of Gaddafi.. A shame more people don't wonder why the US needs it's fingers in everyone's pie or should I say sovereign nation?.. I'm unsure if the words transparent and democratic exist in the world today, I cannot watch the news merely for the fact of how numbing it is to hear the ill-informed spin doctors spread their mass hysteria followed by the latest celebrity gossip.. What times we live in! when US security intelligence services are using Twitter!