Plane shot down with 27 Aussies on board.

[pedleyr]

Absolutely he can, we can deny entry into the country to anyone we want.

Putin should have been excluded anyway, whether this happened or not, **** this facade of Russia being a responsible member of the international community.

 

[Eagleburger]

They need to sew his mouth shut like they did through the elections. Dick head will get our arses nuked.

 

[MastersBrewery]

There are 2 options regarding the G20

1. Not allow him entry to get the message across that Australia and the rest of the International community do not condone his continued support of dissident factions.
2. Allow him to attend the G20 and have the rest of the International community bring him to task face to face. He would also see public demonstrations directly aimed at him.

I like option 2 myself, haven't been to a good Demo in ages!

 

[motch02]

Absolutely he can, we can deny entry into the country to anyone we want.

Putin should have been excluded anyway, whether this happened or not, **** this facade of Russia being a responsible member of the international community.

As compared to the friendly libertarians of the US?, who aided in funding the coup and started this mess by pushing NATO's influence further east?.. That is a silly comment

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Could this be the next, Russian Contras to be added to Wikipedia ?
I have a feeling I could be onto something here.
I shows just what governments are capable of if left to their own devices.
Nev

 

[pedleyr]

As compared to the friendly libertarians of the US?, who aided in funding the coup and started this mess by pushing NATO's influence further east?.. That is a silly comment

Not to be too blunt here but it's either ignorance or dishonesty to assert that what the US does/has done is as morally reprehensible as Russia - keeping in mind that Russia doesn't actually intervene in things that are what you'd call international causes, unless it's to directly further it's own interests. It doesn't participate in international cooperative interventions and in fact tries to block them at every opportunity.

Putin is a scumbag and Russia are not responsible members of the international community and shouldn't be treated as such. The US aren't perfect but it's not only different leagues, it's a different sort entirely.

 

[motch02]

Not to be too blunt here but it's either ignorance or dishonesty to assert that what the US does/has done is as morally reprehensible as Russia - keeping in mind that Russia doesn't actually intervene in things with a positive goal or outcome.

You are stuck in WW2 Russia, I'm not sticking up for Russia then, but Putin has played this very well not even firing a shot to take Crimea and the people wanted it after the coup. Who are we to say that these people can't join Russia?, I know we are Westerners so people have their ideas that the US is this all saving grace but do list?,

Also to show how many countries the US has had it's fingers in over time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

And here Victoria Nuland discussing the future Ukrainian Government: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QxZ8t3V_bk

And if you want to say Afghanistan they did come to the aid of the government at the time while the US trained and armed men like Osama Bin Laden

 

[pedleyr]

You are stuck in WW2 Russia, I'm not sticking up for Russia then, but Putin has played this very well not even firing a shot to take Crimea and the people wanted it after the coup. Who are we to say that these people can't join Russia?, I know we are Westerners so people have their ideas that the US is this all saving grace but do list?,

Also to show how many countries the US has had it's fingers in over time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Covert_United_States_foreign_regime_change_actions

And here Victoria Nuland discussing the future Ukrainian Government:

And if you want to say Afghanistan they did come to the aid of the government at the time while the US trained and armed men like Osama Bin Laden

I'm not even limiting this to Crimea, or to WW2 Russia. 2014 Russia has no respect for human rights and does not give two shits about international expectations or norms. See the last presidential election for one example of how far removed they are from international standards.

It's certainly not for me to say that the people of Crimea can't join Russia, but the proper process to do so needs more than 5 weeks notice of the vote, the vote should contain an option that involves staying with Ukraine, and those nice gentlemen holding Russian military guns driving Russian military vehicles probably shouldn't be peering over everyone's shoulder as they vote.

By comparison, look at the independence movement with Scotland. Self determination is fine, that's why there are processes for it.

I never once said that the US was the saving grace. I specifically said that it had done some shit things, so please don't put words in my mouth. I said and stand by the statement that you're either dishonest or naive to equate Russia with the US in this context.

I do chuckle that you said I'm stuck with WW2 Russia (when I'm not - see above) and then you bring up 1980s Afghanistan and that Wikipedia link to support your equivocation of the US and Russia. You see the irony there surely?

 

[pk.sax]

To be completely honest, who gives a shit what country you live in as long as your life is good, you aren't persecuted for being YOU and reasonably able to look forward to continuing good days.

This splitting and dividing of people is political thuggery, extreme nationalism is another form of bullying and exclusionism. Most sods turning up at a referendum won't have much of an effect on what happens after anyway, despite having an opinion. It's the guys with guns and agendas that shape things. If the wide masses (with opinions or not) mattered then they won't be in the shit they are in. Most 'innocent' people are all too happy to sit by and do nothing but do cry about it when they get in the cross fire.

No, I'm not condoning the perpetrators here but all this interventionist bullshit just prolongs instability and stops the natural will of the WILLING taking it's course. They should all get the **** out of Crimea (including the Ukrainian govt troops and the Russian armed militia) and see how it fares on its own.

 

[jlm]

To be completely honest, who gives a shit what country you live in as long as your life is good, you aren't persecuted for being YOU and reasonably able to look forward to continuing good days.

AND......you can drink beer and eat bacon. To quote Jim Jefferies..."You take beer and bacon from me and I'll fly a plane into a building."

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Personaly...I think Putin is somewhat pissed off right now. He know everyone going to finger him, and the ramifications are HUGE, to say the least.

He knows someone fucked up, and I can imagine there are 3 guys that fired the missile are absolutley shitting themselves, cause they know the world is angry, and Putin is VERY pissed off

 

[browndog]

What a crazy world, this is like something out of a Tom Clancy novel, my boss is an ultra runner and one of his fellow runners was lost along with his wife. I hope the dog that gave the order to fire gets what he deserves.

 

[mje1980]

Not to be too blunt here but it's either ignorance or dishonesty to assert that what the US does/has done is as morally reprehensible as Russia - keeping in mind that Russia doesn't actually intervene in things that are what you'd call international causes, unless it's to directly further it's own interests. It doesn't participate in international cooperative interventions and in fact tries to block them at every opportunity.
Putin is a scumbag and Russia are not responsible members of the international community and shouldn't be treated as such. The US aren't perfect but it's not only different leagues, it's a different sort entirely.

Have you ever been to Russia?

 

[elcarter]

Any one put the flight path into Google maps?

I did and they appear a little higher than the most economical route. The most direct route does take them though another particularity bad flight path but one has to ask did they really have to fly that exact course?

Regardless operating a ground to air missile without the use of some form of IFF is just idiotic.

One does have to realise governments do have at their disposal some pretty interesting tech including a stealth we're are yet to see at our local air show. Air to air is still a possibility and I'm sure they have rigged a ground to air missile to a wing to cover their tracks.

 

[drew9242]

Just to let everyone know as it will be on the news tonight anyway. Unfortunately God in His infinite wisdom has taken my parents in this accident. We prayer for every other family in this situation and understand what they may be going through.

 

[soundawake]

Just to let everyone know as it will be on the news tonight anyway. Unfortunately God in His infinite wisdom has taken my parents in this accident. We prayer for every other family in this situation and understand what they may be going through.

Absolutely terrible. I am SO sorry to hear of your loss.

 

[dicko]

Just to let everyone know as it will be on the news tonight anyway. Unfortunately God in His infinite wisdom has taken my parents in this accident. We prayer for every other family in this situation and understand what they may be going through.

Drew, I am so sorry to hear that news mate.
I don't know you personally but we have communicated both on here and on another forum and I wish to extend to you my commiserations and want you to know that my thoughts are with you and your family during this time.
If you feel you need a chat mate then don't hesitate to PM me.
You are in my thoughts.

Take care,

Dicko

 

[motch02]

. I did post a reply but this is just a homebrewing forum no poiny starting a debate.. I've followed this from the very start and am highly pasionate and can refernece a lot of the evebts that have taken place over the course..

I can tell you it is unlikely a rebel group could use a BUK to take down that plane.. and blaming this on russia is not right it happened in Ukraine by Ukrainians

 

[Neanderthal]

Condolences Drew.
Lets hope this terrible tragerty assists world peace and make it a greater world for all..

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Just to let everyone know as it will be on the news tonight anyway. Unfortunately God in His infinite wisdom has taken my parents in this accident. We prayer for every other family in this situation and understand what they may be going through.

Mate..

Thats..um....what can one say....