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No Frills low cost pressure fermenting

Discussion in 'Gear and Equipment' started by CEO Keg King, 31/10/19.

 

  1. sixfignig

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    Posted 11/12/19
    I have plenty of gauges (the KL ones haven't been great, I'll be looking forward to giving the new integrated blowtie ones a go though). At the moment the brew's not currently under pressure. I'll start spunding a few days into fermentation, at which point I'll calibrate the blowtie to my exact desired pressure by connecting it directly to a gas bottle

    Split batch experiment for an upcoming gypsy brew for Brewsvegas. It's a Brut beer-wine hybrid that will be hit with hibiscus.
     
  2. Grmblz

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    Posted 12/12/19
    Gotcha,+1 on the KL gauges, not very accurate but consistently so, once dialled in I find them ok and the price is right. Beer sounds interesting, pity I'm 1200k's away would love to try it.
     
    sixfignig likes this.
  3. Vic

    Circle of life. I brew, I drink, I brew, etc.. Pro

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    Posted 13/12/19
    Further to our email correspondence with Kyle, please confirm that you actually have no intention of honouring this offer?
     
  4. CEO Keg King

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    Posted 13/12/19
    Not privy to your email with Kyle right now but why don't you PM me to see how I can best help you.
     
  5. Vic

    Circle of life. I brew, I drink, I brew, etc.. Pro

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    Posted 15/12/19
    Copy of email below.
    Vic
    Re: Order No 10927

    I’II take you up on the offer posted on the AHB forum “Posted Saturday at 4:56 PM
    OK I checked with our team and instead of the 10% discount we are offering a free spunding valve together with a disconnect which is even better value. “

    There was not an option to order this on the web site so I ordered anyway and this is the reason for this e-mail.

    Regards,

    Vic ***
    PS If not too late can I add the following to the order.

    3 X Tettnang Hop Pellets 100g

    2 X East Kent Goldings Hop Pellets - 100g

    Call ********** for credit card details.
     
  6. KegLand-com-au

    www.KegLand.com.au - A Land of Stainless Steel AHB Sponsor

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    Posted 17/12/19
    I am a little bit surprised at this reaction. For the current management of Keg King to claim this as an innovation seems a bit much. The Fermenter King Junior was a product that was originally something that Oxebar PTY LTD was going to manufacture and the designs were on the Oxebar.com.au website in 2017. You can see a log of this from The Way Back Machine here:
    https://web.archive.org/web/2017122...ar.com.au/kegasaurus/index.php/20l-kegasaurus
    The management at Keg King seem to be trying to claim this as their invention but it's not correct. They have not innovated this themselves at all and appear to be touting that this is a product they designed.

    We were working on these designs in 2016 - 2017 These were developed as one way kegs with integrated handle but we had a lot of issues with getting this type of handle to release from the injection moulded tooling which was one of the reasons it was not developed earlier. The complications faced in the handles getting stuck in the mould tooling make this particular keg shape problematic. In this design you have some marginal efficiencies gain in the fact that the handles are moulded into the preform neck however these small gains are lost when you factor in the down time from getting the preform stuck in the tooling. Furthermore, this was never designed as a fermenter. It was designed as a 20L disposable keg which is really all it should be used for when the correct resin grade is used with oxygen scavenger.

    Keg King have not been able to successfully make a valve for this keg to date which is why they have not been able to sell this as a one way keg. I would assume they are trying to recoup some of the tooling cost by selling this one way keg as a fermenter but really as a fermenter this product has two distinct issues:
    1. The 20L size is an unusual size for a fermenter and we would not normally use this size in Australia as it's not the correct size for a traditional single batch of beer. Especially once you factor in a few L of head space, some yeast etc.
    2. The opening at the top is quite small. Even a very small hand will not fit into the opening. In general we avoid fermenters that have an opening this small and if you look at many of fermenters that have been designed around the world in the last few years nobody is spending money making these fermenters with 40mm opening. This is one of the reasons why the FermZilla range exists, many customers did complain that they wanted a larger opening to make it easier to clean.

    Then you could possibly use it as a cheap keg but please be aware that you need to keep it out of the sun as the clear PET will block very little violet/blue light and your beer will get skunked and if you do keep it in the dark. Skunking would occur in a clear keg like this in 5min in the sun. In addition to this, a plastic keg like this should not be used for beer storage for more than 6-12 weeks max depending on the beer style. The reason for this is that the oxygen transmission rate through the PET is too high. The clear PET being used in these is the bottle grade CZ 328 PET resin. So it's not a suitable grade for long term storage of beer. I think perhaps KK may have forgotten to disclose this. If they included a more sophisticated barrier in this plastic container the storage life could be lengthened but that is not what this product is. If you really want to do a test this to verify what we are saying make a pilsner or similarly light coloured and light flavoured beer (these beers are very noticeable when they get oxidised). Then put some in this 20L keg and put some in a glass bottle or can or stainless keg. Age the samples for more than 3-5 months and you will see a significant difference in flavor.

    The reality is we have already done this oxygen transmission testing ourselves and we know the Jade 328 PET resin quite well. If you have about 0.6mm wall thickness (which is what is used on this keg) you get O2 permeation of about 3.5CM^3/(M^2.day.bar). Normally for long term beer storage we would consider 0.5CM^3/(M^2.day.bar) to be quite high but clearly the Jade 328 PET is already 7 times higher than this in the O2 transmission rate. So if you look at the numbers you can also see this product is really not ideal as a keg as well as not ideal as a fermenter.

    I think the market does exist for a plastic home brew keg that is cheap. Don't get me wrong. This idea is good. Ideally what is necessary is a multi-layer preform so the gas transmission rate is lower or the use of some other oxygen blocking technology.

    Now clearly as a competitor some of you will regard what we have said with some bias. So we would be keen to get your input on the subject from some other experienced and unbiased sources. Do we have any packaging technologists that can comment on this topic on the forum?
     
    Last edited: 17/12/19
  7. malt and barley blues

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    Posted 17/12/19
    Sounds like someone had sour grapes for lunch.;)
     
  8. CEO Keg King

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    Posted 17/12/19
    Interesting how you quote that you were working on these designs when in fact this tank is a CYPET patent and we claim no invention. We just make products that work for home brewers and we will continue to improve what we can and get the best price performance kit out there for the brewing community. Its a bit rich for you to claim you were working on stuff which actually someone else has patented.

    Our co-operation with CYPET on this product is extremely strong and Keg King is making kegs for them right now. These kegs are far superior to any kegosaurus product which Oxebar ever produced on the Keg King owned equipment. Unlike the kegosaurus they don't leak, are much safer and do not infringe the Dolium PRV patent.

    What we offer as a keg or fermenter is our business and we will let the market judge if people like it or not. We prefer people not to put their hands into PET fermenters to avoid the micro scratches where bacteria can happily live and avoid sanitising fluids. Smooth surface of the PET is far better to keep the microbes out. Besides we are now offering low cost integrated spray ball systems that make all this cleaning affordable and quite simple.

    Stop trying to thrown in a bunch of technical terms to try and impress people. CYPET who is a world leader in all this and our own engineering team have gone through all this and we are comfortable with offering this product.

    Why don't you have the guts to put your name on this? Your writing style makes it rather obvious who you are. Frankly yes you are very biased and obviously concerned that Keg King is making brewers happy. Well we will keep doing our best to look after our customers and I think that the people who matter have the ability to see through this and call it out for what it really is - a load of you know what.
     
    Last edited: 17/12/19
  9. awfulknauful

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    Posted 17/12/19
    I have two and very happy with them, just waiting for my up grade kit now for the Fermenter king.
     
    Truman42 likes this.
  10. wide eyed and legless

    Pro Pro

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    Posted 17/12/19
    I think the grapes gave him verbal diarrhea.
     
    Reg Holt, crackajack and CEO Keg King like this.
  11. Nullnvoid

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    Posted 17/12/19
    I love when Mummy and Daddy fight. LOL
     
  12. wide eyed and legless

    Pro Pro

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    Posted 17/12/19
    Who is Mummy and who is Daddy? Becomes an ambiguous question in prison when some one says do you want to be Mummy or do you want to be Daddy?
     
    Truman42 likes this.
  13. Truman42

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    Posted 17/12/19
    I think if anyone still has beer in a keg 3-5 months later they arent doing it right. If I wanted to sit on a beer for that long I would use a corny keg. These fermenter king juniors are ideal as a spare keg at a good price and I like that they are suitable for smaller 15-18 litre batches as I have used mine for a few experimental type beers and to give pressure fermenting a go.
     
  14. Neil Buttriss

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    Posted 17/12/19
    Where are the " how dare you post on another companies post" especially when it's so negative on what is so far a very good and versatile product. Rather this than a leaky fermentor any day!!
     
    Truman42 and crackajack like this.
  15. Ballaratguy

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    Posted 17/12/19
    As far as the size of these fermenters is concerned, I have 2 of the BrewArt electronic fermenters made by coopers. These are 10Lt capacity (I soften push them up to 12.5Lt though)
    I often use them to split a batch so I can play around with fermentation temps and dry hopping
    This allows me to use the one base recipe but to try different methods/hop schedules etc
    I figure if I stuff it up 10-12Lt wasted is better than a full 23Lt batch
    So the 20Lt size should be ideal for this sort of experimentation
     
    Truman42, Grmblz and crackajack like this.
  16. snails07

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    Posted 17/12/19
    @CEO Keg King and @KegLand-com-au can you two put a set of gloves on and jump in a ring or something?

    A 7 paragraph response bagging out a competitors product is insane. Leave your squabbles in the courtroom.
     
    crackajack, Simon N, Meddo and 2 others like this.
  17. Reg Holt

    Pro Pro

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    Posted 17/12/19
    I am gob smacked at the retort by Keg Land about a product which is proving to be popular. Professional jealousy I think.
     
  18. Frothy Boi

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    Posted 19/12/19
    Someone should start a fkj side by side thread where all the split batch experiments are posted.
     
    crackajack likes this.
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