Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[QldKev]

I can hear it now,

Use the FLOW Luke...

May the flow be with you...

QldKev

 

[gregs]

I can hear it now,

Use the FLOW Luke...

May the flow be with you...

QldKev

No Kev its the (fwo Gwrasshpoer)! :lol:

 

[MCT]

Hey JJ, would you mind posting some more pictures/details of your HX?
I'm looking to do something similar with a hand held element.

Alstart this is exactly what I have done. I did not want to mess with electricity and also wanted to be able to use my hand held for other situations. I dangle my hand held in the middle of the SS coil. The unit itself holds 2.5 Liters of water and is insulated which helps increase temp very quickly. Also in the picture is my chiller which is the same unit but without the top cut off.

Cheers,


JJ

 

[jimmyjack]

Hey JJ, would you mind posting some more pictures/details of your HX?
I'm looking to do something similar with a hand held element.

Yea no probs I will do it when I get home from work tonight.


Cheers,

JJ

 

[roller997]

First of all, thank you for all the contributions and questions - They have helped me quite a lot when thinking about a HERMS system I am planning to design and build.

I was oringinally trying to design a HERMS system that would produce close to 100 liters of fermentable wort, however I am coming to the conclusion that this may be a bit too ambitious (and expensive).
I have been doing AG brewing with 50 liters for some time and I do want to get greater consistency with the mashing process, automation, create more volume and as time progresses, automate the system to ultimately use a brewtroller for most of the process.
For the purpose of automation and wanting to operate the brewing system inside, the aim for the system will be to heat everything via electric elements rather than using gas.
I have a qualified electrican who has agreed to wiring up a number of 20amp circuits to permit me to use quite powerful heating elements.

It seems that there are a few variables to consider when looking at raising the mash temperature via the HE and it appears to be somewhat of a balancing act.

From what I have read so far and my limited knowledge of physics, I have drawn the following conclusions:

• Matrial for Coil - Copper is much better than Stainless at conducting heat
• Length of Coil - The longer the coil, the more heat is transferred (I am assuming here that there is a point where the mash liquor has reached virtually the same temperature as the HE water)
• Speed of liquor passing through Coil - The faster the liquid passes through the coil, the less heat it would pickup unless the coil is long enough and element is powerful enough. One of the concerns is the compaction of the mash bed and the availability of a decent false bottom to stop that from happening
• Thickness of Coil - For a given length of coil, the thicker the coil, the greater the flow and hence the mash liquor temperature is not raised as much as it would be for a thinner coil at the same flow speed.
• Element power (given a fixed sized vessel) - Get the most powerful element you can fit into the HE to minimize the time spent moving between mash temperatures
• Vessel size (given a fixed size element) - The smaller the better for ramping up temperatures, however there seems some concern that a larger vessel holds the temperature more constant when a lot of liquid is being heated at various mashing stages and more copper / stainless can be fitted into a larger vessel

I am keen to have a combination of stainless piping / fittings along with silicon hosing to provide flexibility and the ability to clean everything thoroughly with aggressive cleaning agent when required.
For that reason, I am wondering if anyone cares to share any experiences they had at a set flow rate to establish how many meters of copper or stainless would be required to get to a point of diminishing retrun in terms of heat pickup by the mash liquor?
I would assume that there is a point with copper where the temperature of the mash liquor is close to identical to the ambient HE water temperature. In a similar fashion, if the Stainless coil is long enough, it "should" eventually get pretty close to the ambient HE water temperature.
Also, I am not sure if this is might be a way to overcome the reduced heat conductivity, however would heating the water a few degrees higher than you would with a copper pipe overcome this issue?

I noticed that there have been a few comments on heating elements being installed and how to avoid them from leaking. This made me think that it isn't quite so straight forward to seal the heating elements and there is little chance to put the HE vessel under pressure.
My original idea was to use a pressure cooker in a fashion to heat the mashout liquor into the kettle so that it will be within 2-5 degrees of boiling temperature to avoid scorching the wort.
In theory a pressure cooker could get up to 120 degrees celcius under pressure, so if the elment is powerful enough to sustain a constant flow of 78 degree liquor through the HE, it could have gotten the liquor close to boiling point, even if stainless was used for the HE coil. With elements potentially leaking, such a setup is definately off my list, however I still like the idea of a 10 liter pressure cooker being setup as the HE with pipes exiting through the lid and with the most powerful short element I can find being mounted through the centre of the same lid.

With such a setup, what are the views of at the time of mashout to circulate the wort through the HE which is set to a temperature that ideally ramps up the to 95-98 degrees before it hits the kettle?

I would be very keen to get some indication on what sort of maximum sized system one could build with 1/2" piping and standard March pumps assuming I can get some large enough elements for each stage and a decent false bottom to permit fast recirculation?

There are also concerns in terms of what elements to use for getting to a rolling boil quickly without scorching the wort. Have there been any practical experiences in terms of what heat density element is too much for wort?


Thanks


Roller

 

[glaab]

With such a setup, what are the views of at the time of mashout to circulate the wort through the HE which is set to a temperature that ideally ramps up the to 95-98 degrees before it hits the kettle?

I'm not sure you wanna exceed 78C for mashout.

 

[roller997]

I'm not sure you wanna exceed 78C for mashout.

I am sorry about not being clear enough in my description. I did not intend on exceeding 78 degree mashout temp for the mashing process.
What I meant was the HLT will supply water at 78-79 degrees and the wort will then exit the mashing tun. Instead of being pumped straight to the kettle for the elements to bring it to a boil, I was planning to pump it through the HE again which is by now set to a much higher temperature.

I am essentially trying to reduce the timeframe that the wort has contact with the kettle elements before it has achieves a rolling boil as I hope this will reduce the chance of scorching the wort.

 

[mxd]

Hi Guys

is an 80ltr esky (internal dimensions 30cm Wide x 35cm Deep x 56 cm Long) too big for a Mash Tun in a HERMS system ?

If too big for single would that be OK only for Doubles ?

I currently do BIAB and find I am spending too much time brewing (as in too often) so I would like to move to doubles for my "regulars" and singles for my play (only when I have time).

So currently I have a 50 Ltr urn, 2 elements 1 mounted 1 over the side) and the above mentioned esky.

So I thought I could use the esky as a mash tun, as its HERMS it may keep the heat ok ?

Then buy a new 80 ltr esky (the techni brand that is well insulated) and use that as my beer/BBQ esky and a HLT (heat water in urn move to HLT (can use over the side element to heat here as it is only required for boil).

Does this sound a possible rig ?


My thoughts for a brew day were.
assume 66 Deg Mash 5 kg grain 78 degree mash out

get HE to 66
get urn to 75 degrees (mash temp + 9 degrees to average out grain temp and water temp)
put 13 ltrs of water from urn to mash tun
put grain in mash tun
mash
start flow from MLT to HE
whilst mashing Fill kettle and heat and hold 80 deg
As getting to end of mash move all water in kettle to HLT (new esky)

#this is where I get confused but I think it is something like this
heat up HE to 78
hold for 10 min
loop
start moving wort from MLT to kettle
Start adding water from HLT to MLT - some recirculating here still running through HE ?
Start heating in kettle
stop When enough volume in kettle- stop all the flow
Start the boil process.
Add Hops
etc..

 

[newguy]

(Lots of good stuff to consider snipped)

You've touched on all the things that you have to somehow balance in a HERMS. However, I'd recommend NOT going the pressure-cooker-esque route you mentioned. When doing ramps you don't want to flash boil or otherwise drastically heat the wort as you're denaturing (killing) enzymes that way.

I'd personally recommend going for the biggest ID copper coil you can afford - about 8m. If price was no option go for 12mm (ish) ID copper tubing. Reasons being heat conductivity and flow rate. Your PID controller can handle things if your wort outlet temperature is high, or simply chop a temperature ramp into smaller steps so that temperature overshoot while ramping isn't that big of a deal. Bending the copper into a nice coil is a bit of a pain but all you really need is a good form to wrap it around. Select a pot to house the coil first, then find something to use as a form afterward. If the tubing tends to kink, fill it with sand first (seal both ends to keep the sand in), then try wrapping it. It won't kink with sand in it.

is an 80ltr esky (internal dimensions 30cm Wide x 35cm Deep x 56 cm Long) too big for a Mash Tun in a HERMS system ?

Nope. My mash tun in my HERMS is a 64l aluminum pot and I do ~42l finished volume of wort when I brew. It's small for super heavyweight beers like 1.100 OG barleywines and the like but an 80l esky would be perfect.

 

[mxd]

Nope. My mash tun in my HERMS is a 64l aluminum pot and I do ~42l finished volume of wort when I brew. It's small for super heavyweight beers like 1.100 OG barleywines and the like but an 80l esky would be perfect.

I didn't know if there would be a coverage/grain bed depth issue with a single batch ?

Now I better get on my way to making a HE with some form of heat controller on it.

thanks
Matt

 

[mxd]

could THIS be ok as a start for a HE

 

[schooey]

I've read this thread for a while, and kinda tossed up whether to post or not, but decided to in the end. Obviously these are only my opinions, but I have tried them over the last two years and I can only give you my experiences and what I have learnt in that time.

This is my system;





As you can see, my HERMS coil is in my HLT. Why did I do this you might ask... well at the time it made sense as I was trying to keep things as simple as I could to achieve what I wanted. I was also trying to keep my pump circuit as compact as possible.

I use a stainless coil. I have no issue with heat transfer/conduction with it. I can ramp at 1C/min. If you want to ramp faster, I'd guess I'd have to ask why?

When I first built my HLT/HERMS, I didn't have any agitation and I was finding significant laminar differences in temperatures throughout the HLT. The stirrer was a good addition to ensure the temperature at the sensor is actaully a true reflection of the temperature throughout the HLT.

My system is also a little different in that I use two solenoid valves to avoid temperature overshoot. The sensor for these is at the output of the HERMS coil. To me this is plain common sense. I'm not interested if the mash temp is 68C, I'm interested as to whether the wort I'm heating is at 68C. The mash will inevitably lag due to it's thermal mass and catch up at some point minus the system losses, which in my case is around 1C. I did have some issues with small pieces of grain kernels getting lodged in my vavlves, but a piece of termimesh under the FB has eliminated this.

My biggest issue is not having the HERMS as a seperate vessel if I want to do double batches. Because of the water needed to do a double batch, I have to completely drain the HLT to sparge. This means I cannot recirculate until I have filled the HLT with water and raise it to a suitable temp to do so, or fill it again with already pre-heated water. It's a bit of a catch 22. If I had my time again, I probably would have still placed my HERMS coil in the HLT, just made the HLT a bigger capacity.

 

[gregs]

I've read this thread for a while, and kinda tossed up whether to post or not, but decided to in the end. Obviously these are only my opinions, but I have tried them over the last two years and I can only give you my experiences and what I have learnt in that time.

This is my system;

View attachment 35689 View attachment 35690

View attachment 35691 View attachment 35692

As you can see, my HERMS coil is in my HLT. Why did I do this you might ask... well at the time it made sense as I was trying to keep things as simple as I could to achieve what I wanted. I was also trying to keep my pump circuit as compact as possible.

I use a stainless coil. I have no issue with heat transfer/conduction with it. I can ramp at 1C/min. If you want to ramp faster, I'd guess I'd have to ask why?

When I first built my HLT/HERMS, I didn't have any agitation and I was finding significant laminar differences in temperatures throughout the HLT. The stirrer was a good addition to ensure the temperature at the sensor is actaully a true reflection of the temperature throughout the HLT.

My system is also a little different in that I use two solenoid valves to avoid temperature overshoot. The sensor for these is at the output of the HERMS coil. To me this is plain common sense. I'm not interested if the mash temp is 68C, I'm interested as to whether the wort I'm heating is at 68C. The mash will inevitably lag due to it's thermal mass and catch up at some point minus the system losses, which in my case is around 1C. I did have some issues with small pieces of grain kernels getting lodged in my vavlves, but a piece of termimesh under the FB has eliminated this.

My biggest issue is not having the HERMS as a seperate vessel if I want to do double batches. Because of the water needed to do a double batch, I have to completely drain the HLT to sparge. This means I cannot recirculate until I have filled the HLT with water and raise it to a suitable temp to do so, or fill it again with already pre-heated water. It's a bit of a catch 22. If I had my time again, I probably would have still placed my HERMS coil in the HLT, just made the HLT a bigger capacity.

Great looking system Schooey, can I ask what is the function of the solenoids. In regards to your temperature control?

Cheers.

 

[roller997]

You've touched on all the things that you have to somehow balance in a HERMS. However, I'd recommend NOT going the pressure-cooker-esque route you mentioned. When doing ramps you don't want to flash boil or otherwise drastically heat the wort as you're denaturing (killing) enzymes that way.

I'd personally recommend going for the biggest ID copper coil you can afford - about 8m. If price was no option go for 12mm (ish) ID copper tubing. Reasons being heat conductivity and flow rate. Your PID controller can handle things if your wort outlet temperature is high, or simply chop a temperature ramp into smaller steps so that temperature overshoot while ramping isn't that big of a deal. Bending the copper into a nice coil is a bit of a pain but all you really need is a good form to wrap it around. Select a pot to house the coil first, then find something to use as a form afterward. If the tubing tends to kink, fill it with sand first (seal both ends to keep the sand in), then try wrapping it. It won't kink with sand in it.

Newguy,
Thanks for that feedback. In terms of your original comment of NOT going down the pressure cooker esque route.
Are you suggesting not to pre-heat the wort as it makes it "final exit" to the kettle or are you talking about not aiming to pressurize the vessle which could create up to 120 degree temperatures?
I am assuming that if I don't have a sealed pressurized vessel, the maximum boiling temperature I will get will be just over 100 degrees and by the time it gets to the kettle, it will be close to that again. A rolling boil should get to about the same temperatures I would have thought so the denaturing of the enzymes would be about the same? One option might be to limit the temperature to 99 degrees and as I am quite worried about the scorching aspect of the system, I would be happy to introduce a further control to ensure it doesn't get any higher than 99 degrees.

By the sound of it, you are convinced that copper is the go from a heat conductivity perspective. Looking at most setups, there are a lot more copper based HE coils than Stainless, hence I just ended up buying 12mm (ID) * 18meter copper coil so I will try that.

Thanks also for your advice in relation to bending copper. I will follow that and fill the pipe with sand before "shaping" it for my setup. I did think about the nature of stainless and getting it bent in a nice coil shap bieng not be all that straight forward (or cheap for that matter).

Does anyone have views in relation to maximum amount of fermentable wort when using 1/2" plumbing?


Thanks

Roller

 

[roller997]

I've read this thread for a while, and kinda tossed up whether to post or not, but decided to in the end. Obviously these are only my opinions, but I have tried them over the last two years and I can only give you my experiences and what I have learnt in that time.

This is my system;

View attachment 35689 View attachment 35690

View attachment 35691 View attachment 35692

As you can see, my HERMS coil is in my HLT. Why did I do this you might ask... well at the time it made sense as I was trying to keep things as simple as I could to achieve what I wanted. I was also trying to keep my pump circuit as compact as possible.

I use a stainless coil. I have no issue with heat transfer/conduction with it. I can ramp at 1C/min. If you want to ramp faster, I'd guess I'd have to ask why?

When I first built my HLT/HERMS, I didn't have any agitation and I was finding significant laminar differences in temperatures throughout the HLT. The stirrer was a good addition to ensure the temperature at the sensor is actaully a true reflection of the temperature throughout the HLT.

My system is also a little different in that I use two solenoid valves to avoid temperature overshoot. The sensor for these is at the output of the HERMS coil. To me this is plain common sense. I'm not interested if the mash temp is 68C, I'm interested as to whether the wort I'm heating is at 68C. The mash will inevitably lag due to it's thermal mass and catch up at some point minus the system losses, which in my case is around 1C. I did have some issues with small pieces of grain kernels getting lodged in my vavlves, but a piece of termimesh under the FB has eliminated this.

My biggest issue is not having the HERMS as a seperate vessel if I want to do double batches. Because of the water needed to do a double batch, I have to completely drain the HLT to sparge. This means I cannot recirculate until I have filled the HLT with water and raise it to a suitable temp to do so, or fill it again with already pre-heated water. It's a bit of a catch 22. If I had my time again, I probably would have still placed my HERMS coil in the HLT, just made the HLT a bigger capacity.

That is a very nice looking rig. I have thought about using the HLT as a HE, however if my (possibly silly) idea of passing the wort through the HE during the final stage, it would heat the sparge water too much and I would require a very fast ramp up time.

Do you do any measurements of the HE liqour temperature in comparison to the temperature of the wort that exits the stainless coil? It might provide me with some more information (although as per the previous post, I have started leaning heavily towards copper at this stage).

 

[schooey]

can I ask what is the function of the solenoids'. In regards to your temperature control?

My system is controlled by two PID's. The first PID measures and controls the temperature of the water in the HLT. The probe is positioned at the vertically in the centre of the HERMS coil.

The second PID measures the temp of the wort at the exit of the HERMS coil, and controls a changeover relay that drives the two solenoid valves. Once the PID measures the temp within the desired range, it switches the changeover relay and the wort recirculates through the mash, without going through the herms coil. If the temp drops below the dsired range, the relay switches back and the solenoids change and the wort is diverted through the HERMS coil in the HLT.

When I brew, I measure the desired amount of strike volume into my mash tun, fill the HLT and set the PID's. When the water is exiting the coil at around 30-50C (depending on what I'm brewing), I mash in and continue to let the PID's ramp up to the desired mash temp.

That is a very nice looking rig. I have thought about using the HLT as a HE, however if my (possibly silly) idea of passing the wort through the HE during the final stage, it would heat the sparge water too much and I would require a very fast ramp up time.

Do you do any measurements of the HE liqour temperature in comparison to the temperature of the wort that exits the stainless coil? It might provide me with some more information (although as per the previous post, I have started leaning heavily towards copper at this stage).

To answer your question, Roller, the delta between the HLT temp and my desired wort temp is usually only around 2.5-3.5C (It depends on the ambient and heat losses) If I'm mashing out at 75-76, and I want to sparge at 78, it's perfect. If I want cooler sparges and no mash out, I can easily turn the solenoids manually to just recirculate without passing through the HERMS coil, and adjust the temp in the HLT with a little cold water. With the insulation on the MT, I don't lose any temp in the mash.

Hope that answers your questions.

Cheers,

schooey

 

[mxd]

hi guys,

if I am playing to run water from kettle to HLT and MLT and wort from MLT to MLT (through HERMS) and kettle I would think I would need 2 pumps ?

Or if I don't need to move water once the wort recirculating has began I guess I could use 1.

My current thought had me moving water from kettle to HLT almost at mash out as I was not going to have a heater in the HLT. So many thing to think about, is there any one who has not got a heated HLT who may have some thoughts ?

thanks
Matt

 

[newguy]

Thanks for that feedback.

My pleasure.

In terms of your original comment of NOT going down the pressure cooker esque route.
Are you suggesting not to pre-heat the wort as it makes it "final exit" to the kettle or are you talking about not aiming to pressurize the vessle which could create up to 120 degree temperatures?

Not pressurizing it. Water at > 100C is very very dangerous and somehow making the chamber completely "tight" from a pressure standpoint would make even an experienced pressure vessel welder nervous.

Be safe and accept the little bit of extra time it will take to bring your wort to a boil. You'll live longer.

 

[roller997]

Not pressurizing it. Water at > 100C is very very dangerous and somehow making the chamber completely "tight" from a pressure standpoint would make even an experienced pressure vessel welder nervous.

Be safe and accept the little bit of extra time it will take to bring your wort to a boil. You'll live longer.

Point taken and I would agree that safety definately comes first in these sorts of ventures. From the sounds of it even if I pass the wort through the HE and assuming the element is powerful enough, the wort will be close to 100 degrees on its way to the kettle so the wait won't be too long, the elements won't have to work too long before the boil starts.

 

[KHB]

This is my new Herms Vessel. It holds 8lt water with 6metre of copper. It has got a 2.4KW element in it. I just tested it out and it raised the temp 1.c/per 50 sec. Should go alot better than my last one!!

Cheers
KHB