Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[raven19]

Your ramp temperature rate will be dependant on the volume of liquid in the mash. As the HERMS needs to heat all the liquid to achieve a step up in temp - hence for a double batch size, I would wager its also roughly double the ramp time.

 

[roller997]

Your ramp temperature rate will be dependant on the volume of liquid in the mash. As the HERMS needs to heat all the liquid to achieve a step up in temp - hence for a double batch size, I would wager its also roughly double the ramp time.

I suppose it all depends on where you measure your ramp temperature and how youdefine the ramp rate...
I was looking at the temperature change at the HE output (which I know is not as important as the mash bed temperature changing quickly).
The reason I focussed on that is that many posters talk about a 1-2 degree per minute ramping speed. With such quick changes in ramping temperatures it is unlikely that the whole mash liquor has cycled through the HE and the mash bed would be lagging.
If the diameter of the coil, the pump and the speed at which you can draw liquor from it are limiting, as the ramp temperature on the HE output might rise as quickly as it does for a smaller batch, however the mash bed takes longer to change its temperature.

So if you are talking about the mash bed then you are spot on and I won't take your bet.

Cheers

Roller

 

[Pollux]

Okay, time for me to fire up some questions for those in the know as I'm looking at an upgrade to a double batch HERMS in May.

1. Using a 10L urn as a HX? I've spotted a heap of these going moderately cheaply on eBay (i.e. cheaper than a standalone element). My theory was to remove the factory tap, replace with a bulkhead attach the bottom end of the coil and then plumb it to the rest of the system on the outside of the kettle.

2. I currently have a 40L crown urn, a 50L keggle mashtun and am looking at probably a 100L Al pot and spiral burner, I'd love to be pumping out two full kegs per brew session, which I know means 50L post boil (including cooling loss, kettle trub and all other losses between kettle and keg), possible with my current MLT and HLT?

3. I spotted Tony's idea of a reverse recirc mash, sounds like a great idea and something that if plumbed in from the start would be easy to setup, only issue is the the collection point at the top and the filtration of the wort it draws in, I was thinking of making a circular manifold (I currently have one in the base of the MLT), perhaps covering it with a braid....Would this be enough? Potential issues with anything that may get into the pump? I theory was to run it base to top for the bulk of the mash and then reverse it, meaning the now coming from the top would have to pass back through the braid, this is one spot I think could have a potential issue as it may clog, opinions???

 

[cdbrown]

So I picked up 2 6m coiled lengths of 12.7mm OD annealed copper on the weekend. Will get a joiner and a few other fittings. Where people have gone through the wall of the pot have you used some sort of bulkead fitting and then a compression fitting on the copper tube which screws onto the bulkhead fitting?

I see that most people use 10L pots or there abouts. I have 19L pot which I've been using for brewing and had hoped to use that. Took a look in Big W on the weekend and they either had 7.6L or 19L cheap pots. Would 7.6L pot be better than using the 19L pot? Or should I look around for a 10-12L pot.

One crazy idea is has anyone tried to coil it so there's actually an inner and outer coil. Hard to describe, but find a tube to coil it around which is fairly small, go around once, then instead of continuing up the tube making further coils, bend the tube so it sits on the existing tube and bend around that, when you get back to the start bend it back down onto the tube and repeat. Or bend all the coils going along the tube, then bend bigger coils around the existing coils? Does any of that make sense? Of course it would be limited to the smallest bend radius of the tube with the outer coils having a slightly bigger radius.

 

[gava]

Has a 2200W electrical jug element scavanged from a a cheapy Aldi kettle. There is a bit of work in modifying the housing of the element. I took some photos of what need to be done but they are at home.


Chap Chap

I'd be interested in seeing the photos of this and what kettle you used. thinking of adding a HERMS addition to my rig

 

[hockadays]

So I picked up 2 6m coiled lengths of 12.7mm OD annealed copper on the weekend. Will get a joiner and a few other fittings. Where people have gone through the wall of the pot have you used some sort of bulkead fitting and then a compression fitting on the copper tube which screws onto the bulkhead fitting?

I see that most people use 10L pots or there abouts. I have 19L pot which I've been using for brewing and had hoped to use that. Took a look in Big W on the weekend and they either had 7.6L or 19L cheap pots. Would 7.6L pot be better than using the 19L pot? Or should I look around for a 10-12L pot.

One crazy idea is has anyone tried to coil it so there's actually an inner and outer coil. Hard to describe, but find a tube to coil it around which is fairly small, go around once, then instead of continuing up the tube making further coils, bend the tube so it sits on the existing tube and bend around that, when you get back to the start bend it back down onto the tube and repeat. Or bend all the coils going along the tube, then bend bigger coils around the existing coils? Does any of that make sense? Of course it would be limited to the smallest bend radius of the tube with the outer coils having a slightly bigger radius.

I picked up a grain and grape 2200w element that screwed together to form a simple weldless fitting on a 15L pot from BigW. The size of the HX does matter and what I did was just fill it to about 9L and put a piece of foam ontop essentially bringing the pot volume down to 9L which works well for my system.

 

[chappo1970]

So I picked up 2 6m coiled lengths of 12.7mm OD annealed copper on the weekend. Will get a joiner and a few other fittings. Where people have gone through the wall of the pot have you used some sort of bulkead fitting and then a compression fitting on the copper tube which screws onto the bulkhead fitting?

I see that most people use 10L pots or there abouts. I have 19L pot which I've been using for brewing and had hoped to use that. Took a look in Big W on the weekend and they either had 7.6L or 19L cheap pots. Would 7.6L pot be better than using the 19L pot? Or should I look around for a 10-12L pot.

One crazy idea is has anyone tried to coil it so there's actually an inner and outer coil. Hard to describe, but find a tube to coil it around which is fairly small, go around once, then instead of continuing up the tube making further coils, bend the tube so it sits on the existing tube and bend around that, when you get back to the start bend it back down onto the tube and repeat. Or bend all the coils going along the tube, then bend bigger coils around the existing coils? Does any of that make sense? Of course it would be limited to the smallest bend radius of the tube with the outer coils having a slightly bigger radius.

Sorry Brownie. Been a busy boy. I promise to answer your emails tomorrow.

First things first a double coil is an excellent idea and very do-able. I would do exactly as you have described in fact I have done on few of my nutty experiments. What you do want to do is create a little void or space between the coils as well to allow the water in the HERMS to freely flow around the coils and exchange that precious heat. Start with coiling around a smaller diameter tube then insert another larger tube over the coil you just formed and form that coil. I wish I was more diligent with taking photo's when I did this kind of stuff. Anyway I am sure you get the idea.

My preferrence is to weld fit thru the wall of the pot. Drill a 12.7mm hole thru the wall and tig weld the joint. It will last a lifetime and nowhere for nasties to hide. I am not a fan of compression fittings and copper in the system for that matter. Yes I know copper is good for yeast health yadda yadda but I am just not convinced of how good it is for the consumer of the beer. Compression fittings have too many nooks and crannies for nasties to hide plus the plastic olives I am not completely convinced they are food grade and heat resistant.

Hmmm pot size is always a point for arguement. My preferrence is for the smallest vessel you get your hands on. Two reasons for this is
1. Less volume of water to heat and therefore quicker heat exchange to the wort passing thru your coil. Conversely if you get a stuck sparge and do overheat your wort. Once the blockage is fixed it takes alot less time to equalize your HERMS vessel.
2. Smaller vessels takes up less space in the brewery.

My current HERMS vessel is a mere 2.7lts with 6M of coil.

Brownie in the end it comes down to what you want and what you are willing to compromise. A good Stainless fabricator would have you sorted out in less than an hour.

Again sorry for not originally getting back to you sooner. I'll try to be a little more diligent. :icon_cheers:

 

[chappo1970]

This diagram might help or inspire those planning a 3V HERMS system. Be warned it's not the be all and end all as far as system design. It also incorporates a dual head pump for a 1 Tier system.

View attachment img_601085425_0001.pdf

 

[raven19]

This diagram might help or inspire those planning a 3V HERMS system. Be warned it's not the be all and end all as far as system design. It also incorporates a dual head pump for a 1 Tier system.

I think our boy is back!!!!!! :icon_cheers:

Seeing the penmanship, you might need an engineer to help with those sketches Chap Chap! :lol:

 

[chappo1970]

Seeing the penmanship, you might need an engineer to help with those sketches Chap Chap! :lol:

Geeze give a bloke a break I only pasted crayons 101 last week FFS :unsure:

 

[cdbrown]

Cheers for the email Chappo. All makes sense now.

I'll get a 7.6L pot from Big W next time I'm there. Will also try the dual coil using the annealed tubing I have. It comes pre coiled so I'll check the diameter of the smallest coil in relation to the pot size, hopefully won't have to go any tighter than that. Also picked up a torch, solder (which I need to take back as I think it contains lead) and fittings so will be soldering the copper pipe.

So aren't you happy with your bulkhead fittings on your HERMS chap chap? Bit confused regarding

"My preferrence is to weld fit thru the wall of the pot. Drill a 12.7mm hole thru the wall and tig weld the joint."

are you suggesting to TIG weld the copper pipe to the pot?

Thanks again and great to have you back mate

 

[chappo1970]

Cheers for the email Chappo. All makes sense now.

I'll get a 7.6L pot from Big W next time I'm there. Will also try the dual coil using the annealed tubing I have. It comes pre coiled so I'll check the diameter of the smallest coil in relation to the pot size, hopefully won't have to go any tighter than that. Also picked up a torch, solder (which I need to take back as I think it contains lead) and fittings so will be soldering the copper pipe.

So aren't you happy with your bulkhead fittings on your HERMS chap chap? Bit confused regarding are you suggesting to TIG weld the copper pipe to the pot?

Thanks again and great to have you back mate

My bad CDB. I thought it was SS coil not copper. Geezus I am having a day of whoopsies today. Go the way are going mate.

No I'm not a big fan of weldless bulkheads but it's more a personal thing rather than a practical thing.

 

[roller997]

My bad CDB. I thought it was SS coil not copper. Geezus I am having a day of whoopsies today. Go the way are going mate.

No I'm not a big fan of weldless bulkheads but it's more a personal thing rather than a practical thing.

Chappo,
Are there any potential concerns when running one end of the March pump dry while you are adding water from the HLT?
I talked to someone from Process Pumps over the weekend who mentioned a couple of times that you should not run the 809 dry as it reduces its lifespan. I would assume that in the design of the twin head pump they would have assumed that you won't always have liquid in both ends but then I didn't specifically ask about the dual head pump.

Cheers

Roller

 

[cdbrown]

Unfortunately Chappo's design is not a working solution if using the dual head march pump. Both March Manufacturing and Process Pumps have said that the pump is not food grade especially at wort temps. See this post http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=638109 and onwards

Running the pump dry for a minute can cause it all to seize. They are basically designed to operate non stop.

 

[chappo1970]

Unfortunately Chappo's design is not a working solution if using the dual head march pump. Both March Manufacturing and Process Pumps have said that the pump is not food grade especially at wort temps. See this post http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...st&p=638109 and onwards

Running the pump dry for a minute can cause it all to seize. They are basically designed to operate non stop.

+1 Edzacary Correcto-Mondo

Roller: The pumps are fine as long as they have fluid in the pump head. You can have them shut off via a ball valve but you cannot run them dry ever. The fluid is used as lubricant.

cheers

Chap Chap

 

[fcmcg]

Here is my new heat exchanger....
Its been like 12 months in the build....very slack i know...
Found a guy today who made whe swagelock to bsp fitting for the thermocouple 100 thingy from scratch...for nothing...on the proviso of some beers...
What do people think...should i bring the copper pipe thru the wall of the pot ?

 

[cdbrown]

It would definitely look neater going through the wall. What are those white fittings?

 

[Screwtop]

Here is my new heat exchanger....
Its been like 12 months in the build....very slack i know...
Found a guy today who made whe swagelock to bsp fitting for the thermocouple 100 thingy from scratch...for nothing...on the proviso of some beers...
What do people think...should i bring the copper pipe thru the wall of the pot ?
View attachment 38447

Ferg, have you thought about the effectiveness of mounting the probe in a backwater, so to speak. This is how I mounted mine, so the wort flows around the probe. Have been thinking lately about rotating the fitting so that it's always covered with wort, should the return manifold block and stall flow (this has happened, causing thermal runaway). Food for thought!

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[raven19]

+1 on Screwy's comment. Ideally try and run the wort around the probe rather than just past the end.

My intended (albeit RIMS) outflow with PT100 temp probe.

 

[fcmcg]

Those white things are CPC quick disconnects.....
Thanks Screwy...yes may modify the set up to make it a bit more pretty and put the probe in a back water , so to speak...
Was also thinking of maybe may the return at the bottom of the pot so thatthere is some gravity feed...
Thanks for the feed back guys...
Cheers
Ferg