Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[MattC]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[TidalPete]

Ah but Pete in my experience i have found you should clean before the emery to remove contaminates ( as contaminates can be scored into surface during abrasion) and clean after emery to remove residue.

Brad

Perhaps you have a point there Brad but when I was in my trade the flux (Read cleaning agent) was applied after the light sandover on stainless steel unless of course the stainless was REALLY crappy in which case an initial cleanup was necessary first up.
Bugger it! I reckon we are both correct. :icon_cheers:

TP

 

[browndog]

Ah but Pete in my experience i have found you should clean before the emery to remove contaminates ( as contaminates can be scored into surface during abrasion) and clean after emery to remove residue.

Brad

Go to the head of the class Brad.

-BD

 

[Tony]

Tony you can monitor the temperature back into the Tun by a simple addition of a MM temp gauge S/s a T piece and a reducer as the thread on the short probe version of the MM is smaller. All up a shade over fifty bucks.

Um........ :lol:

I already have a PT100 and a digital display for the return temp to the mash tun. I also monitoe the mash exit temp and the temp mid mash tun.

I have had my HERMS for almost 5 years now. I only use it for temp stability in the mash..... not stepping.

I was more worried about the effect on the beer, that heating the liquid return to the mash would have. I would like to know from someone who does step mashes by ramping the temp in the mash using their herms......... what the temp of the return liquor gets too...... not how to measure it

I have to run mine 2 deg above mash temp to hold temp in my tun and to raise the temp with the poor flow rate i get through my FB..... i would have to have it almost at boiling temp in the return..... which would be bad.

I use my HERMS to maintain temp during steps and raise temps with eiter decoctions or infusions depending on the beer style im making.

I just dont like the idea of heating the mash to say 72 deg in the return when im mashing at 64 deg for a dry beer. Its only going to create high order sugars and reduce my attenuation. thats my concern anyway.

Id like to hear from those doing this what their findings are before i go doing extensive mods to my system for no apparent gain.

cheers

 

[TidalPete]

Go to the head of the class Brad.

-BD

Never had a dud stainless join in 40 odd years of my trade Browndog so I'm happy doing things the way I do. :icon_cheers:
Read my post again. Bloody fishing expeditions! :lol:

TP

 

[Screwtop]

Um........ :lol:

I already have a PT100 and a digital display for the return temp to the mash tun. I also monitoe the mash exit temp and the temp mid mash tun.

I have had my HERMS for almost 5 years now. I only use it for temp stability in the mash..... not stepping.

I was more worried about the effect on the beer, that heating the liquid return to the mash would have. I would like to know from someone who does step mashes by ramping the temp in the mash using their herms......... what the temp of the return liquor gets too...... not how to measure it

I have to run mine 2 deg above mash temp to hold temp in my tun and to raise the temp with the poor flow rate i get through my FB..... i would have to have it almost at boiling temp in the return..... which would be bad.

I use my HERMS to maintain temp during steps and raise temps with eiter decoctions or infusions depending on the beer style im making.

I just dont like the idea of heating the mash to say 72 deg in the return when im mashing at 64 deg for a dry beer. Its only going to create high order sugars and reduce my attenuation. thats my concern anyway.

Id like to hear from those doing this what their findings are before i go doing extensive mods to my system for no apparent gain.

cheers

Tony, pretty sure we swapped PM's about this a couple of years ago. I never let the temp of the wort rise above my mash temp.

Cheers,

Screwy

 

[aldee]

Gday Screwy

This is how i mounted my HE mate, just welded up a bit of scrap RHS i had lying around .

View attachment 35180

Thats a good looking setup Bulp, whats the plastic boxes on the top of the HE ?

 

[newguy]

I was more worried about the effect on the beer, that heating the liquid return to the mash would have. I would like to know from someone who does step mashes by ramping the temp in the mash using their herms......... what the temp of the return liquor gets too...... not how to measure it

In my system (posted it earlier in this thread), I measure mash temperature and the temperature of the water in the HE. My control system is based on the mash temperature. Anyway, the maximum temperature difference between the HE and the mash, while stepping, is 2.5C. When the mash temp is close to the set point, the delta approaches 0. Since the maximum temperature of the outflow is the temperature of the HE, this is my outflow - mash delta T. I use it for temperature stepping on every brew.

It really sounds like you need a different false bottom or whatever arrangement you have in your mash tun. Your flow rate should be quite high to minimise the outflow - mash temp temperature difference.

 

[Tony]

2.5 deg hey..... well thats ok.

I do need a better FB and also may play with opening up my mills rollers 0.1mm

My main problem is that i get such a low flow after recircing for a while that its just a trickle on the return and i almost need it boiling to raise the mash temp. I recon it takes 20 min to half an hour to recirc all the mash liquor.

There is work to be done i think

 

[AndrewQLD]

2.5 deg hey..... well thats ok.

I do need a better FB and also may play with opening up my mills rollers 0.1mm

My main problem is that i get such a low flow after recircing for a while that its just a trickle on the return and i almost need it boiling to raise the mash temp. I recon it takes 20 min to half an hour to recirc all the mash liquor.

There is work to be done i think

Slow flow can be fixed by a courser crush Tony along with some rice hulls, there is no reason a full recirc should take you that long unless your grain bed is compacting and restricting the flow.
Gregs has his system dialed in now from what he was saying today and is getting a good fast recirculation, maybe he will comment on his changes.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[bigbird]

Not sure this is the right place for this but seems a lot hermies are step mashing. I've never done one but would like to start doing them now that I've set up a HERMS system and have a few questions.... Was reading this from How to Brew :

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter14-4.html

"Malted barley also contains a lot of amino acid chains which form the simple proteins needed by the germinating plant. In the wort, these proteins are instead utilized by the yeast for their growth and development. Most wort proteins, including some enzymes like the amylases, are not soluble until the mash reaches temperatures associated with the protein rest (113-131F). The two main proteolytic enzymes responsible are peptidase and protease. Peptidase works to provide the wort with amino acid nutrients that will be used by the yeast. Protease works to break up the larger proteins which enhances the head retention of beer and reduces haze. In fully modified malts, these enzymes have done their work during the malting process.

The temperature and pH ranges for these two proteolytic enzymes overlap. The optimum pH range is 4.2 - 5.3 and both enzymes are active enough between 113 - 131F that talking about an optimum range for each is not relevant. This optimum pH range is a bit low with respect to most mashes, but the typical mash pH of 5.3 is not out of the ballpark. There is no need to attempt to lower the mash pH to facilitate the use of these enzymes. The typical Protein Rest at 120 - 130F is used to break up proteins which might otherwise cause chill haze and can improve the head retention. This rest should only be used when using moderately-modified malts, or when using fully modified malts with a large proportion (>25%) of unmalted grain, e.g. flaked barley, wheat, rye, or oatmeal. Using this rest in a mash consisting mainly of fully modified malts would break up the proteins responsible for body and head retention and result in a thin, watery beer. The standard time for a protein rest is 20 - 30 minutes."

So a few questions around this...

Do you still do a protein rest with fully modified malts (I think most are these days)?

What sort of mash schedule do you use/find best? i.e step temp and duration...

Any other valuable advice you can offer would be awesome.... I love the HERMS action.

Cheers, Dave.

 

[newguy]

So a few questions around this...

Do you still do a protein rest with fully modified malts (I think most are these days)?

Never.

What sort of mash schedule do you use/find best? i.e step temp and duration...

Any other valuable advice you can offer would be awesome.... I love the HERMS action.

Do you mean if I do have a high % of something like malted wheat? If so, when I brew a weizen I aim low (temperature wise) for my strike water so that my mash settles at about 49C ish, then I immediately start the ramp to my chosen saccharification temperature. I find this does a good job of actually reducing the proteins without getting rid of them entirely. The first time I did this with my HERMS I let it rest at that temperature for 20 minutes before I started the ramp. That was too long - the beer had no head.

 

[bigbird]

I was meanin less than 25% of something like malted wheat.
So a protein rest is not the go for a standard sort of malt brew.

I was thinkin of a schedule along the lines of 63 degrees for 30-40 min, 68 degrees for 30-40 min, mashout 78 degrees for 10 min.

Not sure if thats any good or not...

 

[hockadays]

I do protien as it's good for yeast and chill haze. My schedule is 55 degc for 15, 64 for 40, 69 for 20 and mash out at 73.

 

[glaab]

what PID controllers do you guys use?, someone has already asked this but didn't get too many replies.
I'm thinking of ordering this Auberins one:
http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...p;products_id=5
Has anyone else used it and which sensor did you use?
tHanks for any replies, Cheers

 

[hockadays]

The pods are good from auberins, I would use pt100 probes as they are more accurate at the temps we use.

 

[sinkas]

so how do you get a large probe liek the PT100's to be in the flow of the wort?

 

[bulp]

These sensors look the goods LINK, they didn't have them when i bought my sensors might have to upgrade, and these Panel mounts look good too. Also available in "k" type. My PT100 probes are in a stainless thermowell that sits in a 't' piece fitting at the Herms outlet, so past the thermowell and into the top of the mash.

 

[glaab]

thnx for the repiles. I went with the sensor in bulps LINK [ thanks ] and their PID Temperature Controller w/ Ramp/soak, (SYL-2352P). Should do he job ok I hope

 

[gregs]

Slow flow can be fixed by a courser crush Tony along with some rice hulls, there is no reason a full recirc should take you that long unless your grain bed is compacting and restricting the flow.
Gregs has his system dialed in now from what he was saying today and is getting a good fast recirculation, maybe he will comment on his changes.

Cheers
Andrew

Flow rate is the key to HERMS brewing;

After building a HERMS system and having enough coil length and heating capacity to do the job; I am now convinced that flow is the key to dialling in your system.

I ran my system with water to test its heating capacities and found after several runs that the HERMS could ramp at better than 1 degree per min and the water in the mash tun followed close behind. After completing my first brew with the help of AndrewQld as he supplied the grain with additional rice hull ECT all was fine and I was one happy brewer.

During the following brews on my system without the use of rice hulls I found that the mash cycle was holding temp ok but the flow rate was very slow. When it came to mash out there was not enough flow to ramp the temp in the mash tun; the wort exiting the HERM was at 78 degrees but the grist after 10 or so min a good 10 degrees lower making mashout in reasonable time hopeless, if at all possible. I know all the experienced guys say they only ever read the wort temp exiting the HERMS but at a very slow flow rate you can never achieve a decent mashout as the turnover of wort would take forever. After Reading through this thread and doing another brew at Andrews place with rice hulls in the grist and timing the flow rate at a little better than 2 litres per min in a 23litre batch, his wort turnover during the mash was close to 10 times over during the 60 min so when it came time to ramp to mashout 78 degrees his mash tun temp gauge followed the HERMS controller temp by approximately 2 degrees until equilibrium was achieved and all that took was 6 to7 min tops. The brew itself after mash in was completed in just over 3 hours.

The next brew on my system was a mid strength 46 litre batch completed in the same manor and went perfectly. 80% efficiency all targets hit 3.5 hours from mash in including cleanup and packed away. FLOW IS THE KEY.