Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[sav]

Painted my control box at work yesterday 2pack red pearl looks the goods just need to wire in.

 

[sav]

Painted my control box at work yesterday 2pack red pearl looks the goods just need to wire in.

 

[antains]

Now that's love!

 

[The Mexican]

Hi Chappo,

I placed a post today related to HERMS that I thought may help some of your punters, but it ended up in the AG section, sorry, I'll get it right next time...... Once I have my system up & running I will put together a full report on construction & opreation.
Regards.... Doug ( The Mexican )

 

[mxd]

Hi Guys,

with a HERMS do you run the pump the whole time or only when you want to raise the temp ?

I was thinking with a separate HE I would run the pump the whole time (would the help with efficiency ?)

Or do you just run the pump when you want to raise the temp ?

I assume people do both ways (if you have the HLT and HE in one, I would assume you just run the pump when heating), but is there any pro's/con's for each one ?

My feeling is it would be easier to run the pump when you want to raise the temp, that way you could have the HE temp at mash out temp, then control the pump off a tempmate from the mash temperature ?

Still collecting things and still doing BIAB, my MLT is more like a sieve, I need to find a place to buy silicon washers.

cheers
Matt

 

[chappo1970]

Hi Guys,

with a HERMS do you run the pump the whole time or only when you want to raise the temp ?

I was thinking with a separate HE I would run the pump the whole time (would the help with efficiency ?)

Or do you just run the pump when you want to raise the temp ?

I assume people do both ways (if you have the HLT and HE in one, I would assume you just run the pump when heating), but is there any pro's/con's for each one ?

My feeling is it would be easier to run the pump when you want to raise the temp, that way you could have the HE temp at mash out temp, then control the pump off a tempmate from the mash temperature ?

Still collecting things and still doing BIAB, my MLT is more like a sieve, I need to find a place to buy silicon washers.

cheers
Matt

I recirc the whole time MXD don't see the point otherwise. HERMS is about temp control up down left right and sideways it's all up the the brewer. I'll should post a few picts of the new HERMS so upset the establishment

 

[mxd]

Ok, so I have just bought same more stuff,

A to be keggle (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130378186334&ssPageName=ADME:L:COSI:AU:1123) and a to be HE (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290419742262&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT).

I think the keggle is 18 Gallons (80 ltr ?), so just need to get a "bung" and start chopping and drilling to insert the heating elements.

Then for the HE I will now need to figure out how to make a coil of copper to insert in the urn. I will use my 50 ltr urn as a HLT (assume the Keggle is 80 ltrs). I just have to stop my MLT from leaking, it's such a PITA.

 

[jakub76]

I'm starting to explore a HERMS design with the HE inside the HLT. Has anyone successfully used this same coil to then cool the wort after boiling? I'm thinking the theory is sound. Once you've done your sparge and spent any leftover hot water cleaning the lines and the MLT, refill the HLT with tap water and ice then pipe your wort back through that coil to cool it.
Maybe even place the kettle inlet at an angle to get a whirlpool going during cooling.
AND has anyone been able to find a single tier solution with only one pump, I keep shuffling my design but it's always 2 pumps, one for wort other for water.
Here's some eye candy I've been drooling over. http://www.wortomatic.com/articles/Baltobr...-Electric-Stand

 

[jfinney]

I use a 7 litre el cheapo pot with about 8 metres of 1/2 inch copper coiled inside.

nifty

 

[FNQ Bunyip]

I'll should post a few picts of the new HERMS so upset the establishment

So ???

 

[jfinney]

Thanks FNQ and yes it is time you did step up! :lol:

@Newguy that would be great if you could post your system. Maybe the older hands at HERMS post up their systems and modifications to kick off the thread? I'll PM you Newguy when it gets a start.

@Bulp to right mate. It's like we are the unmentionables.




Mods please delete this post!

Kidding!

Glabb welcome aboard! IMO only 19lt is too big because of the volume of water the HE has to deal with including the HE from the wort so it would be better for a smaller 9-11lt pots. I have seen at BigW. But lets leave that for the thread. PM if you wish.

Hi there Chappo and all the HERMS brewers on this forum,

Firstly, thank you to you all for your information, you have helped me immensely! This is the first time I have commented, but I thoroughly enjoyed reading through everyones valuable information. (Sorry, but I am very new to forums, and forgive me if my computer literacy is really bad!)

I have decided to bite the bullet and build a HERMS brew system with separate heat exchanger. I have heard some people mention 7.9 litre pots, and some mentioned 10-11litre pots. I am trying to decide what size and type of HE to build, ie what volume and what type of vessel esky cooler or stainless pot??? If I use a smaller HE such as the Coleman 7.6 litre cooler, (picture attached hopefully!!) will that give me faster temp control given it is a smaller insulated unit? I was thinking of running the coil from the lid, and 240v kettle element through the bottom, and temp-mate controlling outflow temp back to MLT. Could someone please advise?

Thanks again for this great source of info guys!



I am a ver keen brewer, and I have decided to build a HERMS system with sepperate heat exchanger.

 

[tgarland]

Top setup!

Does anyone out there have any experience with direct fired HERMS, ie, a solenoid controlled burner directly under the mash tun?

I am taking a lesson from Lonnie's book at http://alenuts.com

I would have to aggree with him that with circulatign wort, and a full false bottom that caramalising (burning) the grain would not be an issue, and is also less complex than an external coil, plus less to clean, plus less wastage.

Very new to this so simply putting it out there for guidance.

Cheers,
Tony

 

[raven19]

Have sent Puffer a PM on AMB, his unit here is pretty sweet and is direct fired.

You may not be able to see if not a 'local' member though.

AMB Thread

 

[puffer555]

Thanks for the plug raven19.

Yeah mine is direct fired, but I've extended the principle to BIAB too.
I have posted pictures on AHB too, here it is.
http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...t=0&start=0
I'm not sure its really considered a HERMS though, so the mods here may consider this off topic.

Its a good simple system. not many extra parts needed from what I needed for BIAB.
Just a solenoid, pilot, and tempmate.
Well I suppose you need a pump too, but this is also for transfer of wort, chilling, better efficiency etc.
Anyway, I like the system, and would recommend it.
Besides, If you see the number of Brutus 10's that have popped up around the world, it is obviously a popular method.

 

[jfinney]

Can someone please advise what is the best size heat excanger to use, 7 litre or 10 litre?

 

[razz]

Which ever size best suits your copper coil jfinney, that is if you're using a copper coil?

 

[jfinney]

Which ever size best suits your copper coil jfinney, that is if you're using a copper coil?

Razz, I was thinking if I find the most efficient size heat exchanger, then I can make the coil to fit the exchanger, not the other way around. I know that more water volume in exchanger means slower heat time given the 240v element I plan to use. I knwo someone mentioned they use a 7 litre and get a temp rise of 2C per min, but a larger water volume, say 10 litre may present more even steady temp management.

I know there are so many ways to do this, but I guess I am trying to get it right from the start through other peoples experiences and results.

 

[raven19]

...use a 7 litre and get a temp rise of 2C per min, but a larger water volume, say 10 litre may present more even steady temp management.

That will depend on the size of your typical batch also - just to throw another spanner in the works! <_<

 

[jfinney]

That will depend on the size of your typical batch also - just to throw another spanner in the works! <_<

Spanner indeed, raven19! I was planning on single and double batches, ie 19 litre or 39 litre, I guess it will take longer, possibly double the time to raise temps for the double batch?

 

[roller997]

Spanner indeed, raven19! I was planning on single and double batches, ie 19 litre or 39 litre, I guess it will take longer, possibly double the time to raise temps for the double batch?

I might be wrong, however unless you increase the volume of the wort flowing through the copper tube in the HE, your ramping of temperatures is likely to be going at the same.
I would expect it to take longer (assuming the same volume of wort going through the copper coil) to change the temperature of the mash I would.

 

[raven19]

Your ramp temperature rate will be dependant on the volume of liquid in the mash. As the HERMS needs to heat all the liquid to achieve a step up in temp - hence for a double batch size, I would wager its also roughly double the ramp time.

 

[roller997]

Your ramp temperature rate will be dependant on the volume of liquid in the mash. As the HERMS needs to heat all the liquid to achieve a step up in temp - hence for a double batch size, I would wager its also roughly double the ramp time.

I suppose it all depends on where you measure your ramp temperature and how youdefine the ramp rate...
I was looking at the temperature change at the HE output (which I know is not as important as the mash bed temperature changing quickly).
The reason I focussed on that is that many posters talk about a 1-2 degree per minute ramping speed. With such quick changes in ramping temperatures it is unlikely that the whole mash liquor has cycled through the HE and the mash bed would be lagging.
If the diameter of the coil, the pump and the speed at which you can draw liquor from it are limiting, as the ramp temperature on the HE output might rise as quickly as it does for a smaller batch, however the mash bed takes longer to change its temperature.

So if you are talking about the mash bed then you are spot on and I won't take your bet.

Cheers

Roller

 

[Pollux]

Okay, time for me to fire up some questions for those in the know as I'm looking at an upgrade to a double batch HERMS in May.

1. Using a 10L urn as a HX? I've spotted a heap of these going moderately cheaply on eBay (i.e. cheaper than a standalone element). My theory was to remove the factory tap, replace with a bulkhead attach the bottom end of the coil and then plumb it to the rest of the system on the outside of the kettle.

2. I currently have a 40L crown urn, a 50L keggle mashtun and am looking at probably a 100L Al pot and spiral burner, I'd love to be pumping out two full kegs per brew session, which I know means 50L post boil (including cooling loss, kettle trub and all other losses between kettle and keg), possible with my current MLT and HLT?

3. I spotted Tony's idea of a reverse recirc mash, sounds like a great idea and something that if plumbed in from the start would be easy to setup, only issue is the the collection point at the top and the filtration of the wort it draws in, I was thinking of making a circular manifold (I currently have one in the base of the MLT), perhaps covering it with a braid....Would this be enough? Potential issues with anything that may get into the pump? I theory was to run it base to top for the bulk of the mash and then reverse it, meaning the now coming from the top would have to pass back through the braid, this is one spot I think could have a potential issue as it may clog, opinions???

 

[cdbrown]

So I picked up 2 6m coiled lengths of 12.7mm OD annealed copper on the weekend. Will get a joiner and a few other fittings. Where people have gone through the wall of the pot have you used some sort of bulkead fitting and then a compression fitting on the copper tube which screws onto the bulkhead fitting?

I see that most people use 10L pots or there abouts. I have 19L pot which I've been using for brewing and had hoped to use that. Took a look in Big W on the weekend and they either had 7.6L or 19L cheap pots. Would 7.6L pot be better than using the 19L pot? Or should I look around for a 10-12L pot.

One crazy idea is has anyone tried to coil it so there's actually an inner and outer coil. Hard to describe, but find a tube to coil it around which is fairly small, go around once, then instead of continuing up the tube making further coils, bend the tube so it sits on the existing tube and bend around that, when you get back to the start bend it back down onto the tube and repeat. Or bend all the coils going along the tube, then bend bigger coils around the existing coils? Does any of that make sense? Of course it would be limited to the smallest bend radius of the tube with the outer coils having a slightly bigger radius.

 

[gava]

Has a 2200W electrical jug element scavanged from a a cheapy Aldi kettle. There is a bit of work in modifying the housing of the element. I took some photos of what need to be done but they are at home.


Chap Chap

I'd be interested in seeing the photos of this and what kettle you used. thinking of adding a HERMS addition to my rig

 

[hockadays]

So I picked up 2 6m coiled lengths of 12.7mm OD annealed copper on the weekend. Will get a joiner and a few other fittings. Where people have gone through the wall of the pot have you used some sort of bulkead fitting and then a compression fitting on the copper tube which screws onto the bulkhead fitting?

I see that most people use 10L pots or there abouts. I have 19L pot which I've been using for brewing and had hoped to use that. Took a look in Big W on the weekend and they either had 7.6L or 19L cheap pots. Would 7.6L pot be better than using the 19L pot? Or should I look around for a 10-12L pot.

One crazy idea is has anyone tried to coil it so there's actually an inner and outer coil. Hard to describe, but find a tube to coil it around which is fairly small, go around once, then instead of continuing up the tube making further coils, bend the tube so it sits on the existing tube and bend around that, when you get back to the start bend it back down onto the tube and repeat. Or bend all the coils going along the tube, then bend bigger coils around the existing coils? Does any of that make sense? Of course it would be limited to the smallest bend radius of the tube with the outer coils having a slightly bigger radius.

I picked up a grain and grape 2200w element that screwed together to form a simple weldless fitting on a 15L pot from BigW. The size of the HX does matter and what I did was just fill it to about 9L and put a piece of foam ontop essentially bringing the pot volume down to 9L which works well for my system.

 

[chappo1970]

So I picked up 2 6m coiled lengths of 12.7mm OD annealed copper on the weekend. Will get a joiner and a few other fittings. Where people have gone through the wall of the pot have you used some sort of bulkead fitting and then a compression fitting on the copper tube which screws onto the bulkhead fitting?

I see that most people use 10L pots or there abouts. I have 19L pot which I've been using for brewing and had hoped to use that. Took a look in Big W on the weekend and they either had 7.6L or 19L cheap pots. Would 7.6L pot be better than using the 19L pot? Or should I look around for a 10-12L pot.

One crazy idea is has anyone tried to coil it so there's actually an inner and outer coil. Hard to describe, but find a tube to coil it around which is fairly small, go around once, then instead of continuing up the tube making further coils, bend the tube so it sits on the existing tube and bend around that, when you get back to the start bend it back down onto the tube and repeat. Or bend all the coils going along the tube, then bend bigger coils around the existing coils? Does any of that make sense? Of course it would be limited to the smallest bend radius of the tube with the outer coils having a slightly bigger radius.

Sorry Brownie. Been a busy boy. I promise to answer your emails tomorrow.

First things first a double coil is an excellent idea and very do-able. I would do exactly as you have described in fact I have done on few of my nutty experiments. What you do want to do is create a little void or space between the coils as well to allow the water in the HERMS to freely flow around the coils and exchange that precious heat. Start with coiling around a smaller diameter tube then insert another larger tube over the coil you just formed and form that coil. I wish I was more diligent with taking photo's when I did this kind of stuff. Anyway I am sure you get the idea.

My preferrence is to weld fit thru the wall of the pot. Drill a 12.7mm hole thru the wall and tig weld the joint. It will last a lifetime and nowhere for nasties to hide. I am not a fan of compression fittings and copper in the system for that matter. Yes I know copper is good for yeast health yadda yadda but I am just not convinced of how good it is for the consumer of the beer. Compression fittings have too many nooks and crannies for nasties to hide plus the plastic olives I am not completely convinced they are food grade and heat resistant.

Hmmm pot size is always a point for arguement. My preferrence is for the smallest vessel you get your hands on. Two reasons for this is
1. Less volume of water to heat and therefore quicker heat exchange to the wort passing thru your coil. Conversely if you get a stuck sparge and do overheat your wort. Once the blockage is fixed it takes alot less time to equalize your HERMS vessel.
2. Smaller vessels takes up less space in the brewery.

My current HERMS vessel is a mere 2.7lts with 6M of coil.

Brownie in the end it comes down to what you want and what you are willing to compromise. A good Stainless fabricator would have you sorted out in less than an hour.

Again sorry for not originally getting back to you sooner. I'll try to be a little more diligent. :icon_cheers:

 

[chappo1970]

This diagram might help or inspire those planning a 3V HERMS system. Be warned it's not the be all and end all as far as system design. It also incorporates a dual head pump for a 1 Tier system.

View attachment img_601085425_0001.pdf

 

[raven19]

This diagram might help or inspire those planning a 3V HERMS system. Be warned it's not the be all and end all as far as system design. It also incorporates a dual head pump for a 1 Tier system.

I think our boy is back!!!!!! :icon_cheers:

Seeing the penmanship, you might need an engineer to help with those sketches Chap Chap! :lol:

 

[chappo1970]

Seeing the penmanship, you might need an engineer to help with those sketches Chap Chap! :lol:

Geeze give a bloke a break I only pasted crayons 101 last week FFS :unsure: