Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[RussTaylor]

Interesting, so do you control the temp of the water being pumped through the HE to arrive at your wort out temp?

Screwy

Pretty much. There's a probe in the HLT and a probe in the mash both connected to Dwyer controllers. I set the HLT to say 68C and the mash sits nicely at 66C. The mash is always 2C less than HLT. I'm not actually measuring the wort out temperature like you've suggested in other posts but I reckon it's pretty close. My probe in the mash sits just under the wort return inlet so it would be measuring the hotest part of the mash. I can raise to mash out temp in about 10-15mins.

 

[Polar Beer]

Question for my build:

One of the objectives of my HERMS will be to move into double batches. I currently pump my single batches out of the mash tun and into the kettle via the valve at the base of the kettle. Works fine.
My question is - will my march pump struggle with this going to double batches? ie: will it the extra volume in the kettle as it nears 60L, start putting too much reverse pressue on the pump flow into the kettle?

I hope that makes sense. I could always fill it from the top.

Cheers
Polar

 

[fcmcg]

Question for my build:

One of the objectives of my HERMS will be to move into double batches. I currently pump my single batches out of the mash tun and into the kettle via the valve at the base of the kettle. Works fine.
My question is - will my march pump struggle with this going to double batches? ie: will it the extra volume in the kettle as it nears 60L, start putting too much reverse pressue on the pump flow into the kettle?

I hope that makes sense. I could always fill it from the top.

Cheers
Polar

Polar,
When i am doing a brew ( double batch) , i do exectly as you do. I have no probs at all with reverse pressure.
The pump more than handles the situation ,even with 50 + litres going into the kettle.
One thing to make sure though , that is your pump is lower than your lowest vessel and it is well primed .
I've had the pump for 5 brews now and have used it this way since i got it and am very , very happy with it...you won't have any probs....
Cheers
Ferg

 

[newguy]

From the March H315 specs on morebeer.com:

This pump has a maximum flow of 7.2 gpm with a maximum head of 12 feet. For an example of typical usage: with a head of 6' it will pump 3.25 gpm and with an 8' head it will pump 2.5 gpm.

As long as you're not pumping some huge vertical direction (max height of wort in kettle - bottom of pump (if pump is lowest in system) or - bottom of mash tun (if mash tun is lowest in system)) it might be fine. Just know that as your kettle fills and the backpressure on the pump builds, the flow rate will slow, if not become 0. Try it with water first. If you have problems you'll have to fill from the top.

 

[Polar Beer]

thanks guys. Good advice!


I really should have raised this in another topic. It's not really a HERMS question as such.
Thread mods - feel free to remove this one. Dont want to cascade into a march pump discussion.

 

[chappo1970]

thanks guys. Good advice!


I really should have raised this in another topic. It's not really a HERMS question as such.
Thread mods - feel free to remove this one. Dont want to cascade into a march pump discussion.

Disagree PB. Pretty hard to have a HERMS without a pump? Please leave it Mods it's certainly a consideration we all need to take into our systems.

Chap Chap

 

[Polar Beer]

Disagree PB. Pretty hard to have a HERMS without a pump? Please leave it Mods it's certainly a consideration we all need to take into our systems.

Chap Chap

OK then

Next question:
I have a dream. A dream that I can fill my Mash tun with strike water before I go to bed, when I wake up I find it recirculating at my desired temprature, ready for the grain to be tossed in.
Is anyone doing this with their HERMS? I wouldn't know where to start. I'll be using an auberin ramp/soak PID if that helps anyone.

Polar

 

[kfahy]

Can i ask about the kind of PIDs people are using too? What kind of PIDs are people using

Do the ramp soak ones let you set the temps for a set period of time and then ramp it up. So could you set it for 67 for the mash and then raise it to mashout and have it do that automatically? Is the the benefit over just an on/off one?

I'm pretty hopeless when it comes to electronics sorry

What other options are there?

 

[chappo1970]

OK then

Next question:
I have a dream. A dream that I can fill my Mash tun with strike water before I go to bed, when I wake up I find it recirculating at my desired temprature, ready for the grain to be tossed in.
Is anyone doing this with their HERMS? I wouldn't know where to start. I'll be using an auberin ramp/soak PID if that helps anyone.

Polar

Do it every brew day. Like Screwy I don't heat up the HLT for stike I fill the MLT to desired volume, switch on the HE and march pump. Go have a cuppa by the time I return 15-20mins later I am at 40-50C (depending on what I am doing) I dough in. Simple. If yoou wanted all dusted and ready to go a $20 timer from Bunnings would do the the trick.

BTW I only do double batches.

Chap Chap

 

[glaab]

Question for my build:
ie: will it the extra volume in the kettle as it nears 60L, start putting too much reverse pressue on the pump flow into the kettle?

Cheers
Polar

:icon_offtopic:

wouldn't the pressure at the tap be the same with 60L in the kettle as it would be with a length of hose
extending up to the same height as the level in the kettle? [ provided it had id equal to or greater than the valve ] I think you could have a 1000L kettle and the head height/ flow rate wouldn't change.

 

[TidalPete]

Do it every brew day. Like Screwy I don't heat up the HLT for stike I fill the MLT to desired volume, switch on the HE and march pump. Go have a cuppa by the time I return 15-20mins later I am at 40-50C (depending on what I am doing) I dough in. Simple. If yoou wanted all dusted and ready to go a $20 timer from Bunnings would do the the trick.

BTW I only do double batches.

Chap Chap

At the risk up upsetting our Chap Chap it's faster to set your timer to heat the HLT to say 42 deg c the night before.
Wake up, roll out of the cot etc, then turn on the HE & set to the next step whilst you underlet to your grain bill in the MT at the same time.
Very similar I know but still a time saving exercise (Especially in the cold months).

BTW I only do double batches when the recipe has proven itself.
Forgive me chappo old mate. :icon_cheers:

TP

 

[AndrewQLD]

At the risk up upsetting our Chap Chap it's faster to set your timer to heat the HLT to say 42 deg c the night before.
Wake up, roll out of the cot etc, then turn on the HE & set to the next step whilst you underlet to your grain bill in the MT at the same time.
Very similar I know but still a time saving exercise (Especially in the cold months).

BTW I only do double batches when the recipe has proven itself.
Forgive me chappo old mate. :icon_cheers:

TP

That's the way TP, exactly what I do, one of the reasons my brew day is 3.5 hours long from start to finish.

Andrew

 

[Polar Beer]

Do the ramp soak ones let you set the temps for a set period of time and then ramp it up. So could you set it for 67 for the mash and then raise it to mashout and have it do that automatically? Is the the benefit over just an on/off one?

pretty much AFAIK
You can also set it to rest your mash at different temps. If that's what you're into.

 

[TidalPete]

That's the way TP, exactly what I do, one of the reasons my brew day is 3.5 hours long from start to finish.

Andrew

Looking forward to talking to you on 26th March Andrew. Perhaps you can show me a few shortcuts? My brewday is MUCH longer probably because I am too fussy.

TP

 

[chappo1970]

At the risk up upsetting our Chap Chap it's faster to set your timer to heat the HLT to say 42 deg c the night before.
Wake up, roll out of the cot etc, then turn on the HE & set to the next step whilst you underlet to your grain bill in the MT at the same time.
Very similar I know but still a time saving exercise (Especially in the cold months).

BTW I only do double batches when the recipe has proven itself.
Forgive me chappo old mate. :icon_cheers:

TP

No offence taken TP you know that I appreciate what you have to say. (Except your turning all tree huggin dredlock wearing hippy on me :lol: ) Your way certainly has it advantages from what I can see and certainly an advantage in winter time no doubt about it.

To be honest I don't find it a PITA as tap temp thru summer is 26-27C, about 22-24 in winter) so it really only needs to heat up 15C to hit B Glucan rest or 23C for Protein. @ 1C per minute rise I would only be waiting 15 to 25mins anyway. Must admit I haven't timed it but it also has the advantage of pre-heating the tun and making sure stike temp is near perfect.

Gotta love this brewing game. 1,000 way to skin the same ugly cat! :lol:

 

[WitWonder]

Watching this thread with interest though one question (not necessarily HERMS specific) but why/how doesn't the grainbed collapse and you get a stuck sparge? I assume for the sacc rest most people are recirculating the whole time, drawing wort from the bottom of the tun and depositing it back at the top, routed via the pump/HE? There is obviously a false bottom for the MLT but even so what prevents stuck sparges in this scenario??

 

[newguy]

As long as the malt isn't crushed too fine and the mash tun's dimensions are such that the grain bed isn't too deep it's pretty hard to get a stuck runoff with all barley malt. Assuming of course that your manifold/false bottom/whatever is properly set up and adequate for the task. Another factor is the water/grain ratio. If it's high enough, the mash tends to float even though wort is being sucked from the bottom of the tun. If it's low or if you run the pump to try and suck the wort out of the mash tun without returning water/wort to the top, then it will stick. I've also found that a tall slender tun (a gott cooler that I used to use) would tend to want to stick. I assume that's because of the increased weight/pressure that the mash creates at the bottom of the tun compared to a wider shorter tun.

I presently have a false bottom but I've also used two different esky-based tuns (one a normal 48l esky and the other a ~60ish liter gott) with slotted copper manifolds (homemade). No issues with stuck mashes in either of them or my present setup, even with high wheat % (67%). As I said, the gott would run off more slowly than the others but it never stuck. When I first started brewing I used two 20l plastic pails, one in the other, with the top pail having a lot of holes drilled in its bottom - the "zapap" lauter tun in Papazian's books. I never had a good runoff with that damn thing. Without exception, every mash I did in it stuck.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Watching this thread with interest though one question (not necessarily HERMS specific) but why/how doesn't the grainbed collapse and you get a stuck sparge? I assume for the sacc rest most people are recirculating the whole time, drawing wort from the bottom of the tun and depositing it back at the top, routed via the pump/HE? There is obviously a false bottom for the MLT but even so what prevents stuck sparges in this scenario??

From this post here, on my system it's all about the balance of wort flow speed, course crush, liquor/grain ratios, use of rice hulls, knowing your system very well and not disturbing the grain bed after mash in. When you get all of this right the grain bed won't collapse as the wort is filtering down through a fairly porous grain bed.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[chappo1970]

As long as the malt isn't crushed too fine and the mash tun's dimensions are such that the grain bed isn't too deep it's pretty hard to get a stuck runoff with all barley malt. Assuming of course that your manifold/false bottom/whatever is properly set up and adequate for the task. Another factor is the water/grain ratio. If it's high enough, the mash tends to float even though wort is being sucked from the bottom of the tun. If it's low or if you run the pump to try and suck the wort out of the mash tun without returning water/wort to the top, then it will stick. I've also found that a tall slender tun (a gott cooler that I used to use) would tend to want to stick. I assume that's because of the increased weight/pressure that the mash creates at the bottom of the tun compared to a wider shorter tun.

Very interesting Newguy. I have been trying to formulate something around mash tun design but especially towards HERMS and suspected exactly what you have also observed so that's good news. Currrently trying to develop a design for a custom made purpose built mash tun and heat exchanger for Sherman Mk3.

 

[altstart]

My herms uses a 1500 watt element and experience has shown that it is underpowered. It is proving impossible to find a 2400 watt non screw in type element but I already have a handheld 2400 watt water heater that is no longer used in the brewery. my thoughts are to adapt this heater and use it in addition to the 1500 watt element. I am useing a 19 litre pot with a 6 metre S/S coil this should improve my ramp times considerably. I am aware of the additional power requirements in order to do this safely but before I start down this road is anyone else useing this amont of heating capacity.
Cheers Altstart