Wild Yeast Problems - How you overcame

[TimT]

One of the more entertaining suggestions is cleaning with vodka instead of Starsan! (Makes sense actually, high alcohol should kill off yeasts).

 

[TimT]

The relevant discussions (on Facebook):

Wild Fermentation (several suggestions, some more helpful than others)
Sourdough bakers (very little helpful so far)
Permaculture Victoria (very little)

Interesting that so far sourdough bakers haven't come back with similar issues - maybe it just doesn't happen as much with bread? I reckon you should try to use a sourdough culture to make a bread in your brewery and see what the results are.

 

[Nizmoose]

Props to you for all the effort Tim JS!

 

[Black Devil Dog]

Do you squeeze ALL the air out of your cube? And I mean ALL the air, once the hot wort has been transferred.

Do you pull all your taps apart and soak in sodium perc then sanitise, after every time you use them?

These two minor aspects can potentially cause major issues, if not done.

I see you have the tap on your cube. I don't really trust taps and leave them off, pulled apart, soaking in sanitiser, until I'm absolutely ready to transfer from cube to fermenter.

When I'm ready, I put them back together and dunk them in sanitiser again.

I'm really anal about sanitising the bejeezus out of everything within sight, closing all the doors and windows, breathing lightly, facing mecca, slaughtering a calf and crossing my fingers.

So far it has worked.

Good luck.

 

[Nizmoose]

I can vouch for the calf sacrifice

 

[manticle]

One of the more entertaining suggestions is cleaning with vodka instead of Starsan! (Makes sense actually, high alcohol should kill off yeasts).

Ethanol level in vodka might possibly help inhibit but unlikely to kill all microorganisms.

 

[Moad]

Okay, just some preliminary feedback from those forums and then I've gotta get back to work:

1) A link to a post by a brewer who helped a brewing friend identify and get rid of a similar problem. Doesn't sound like your problem is the same but it has some interesting suggestions for finding the source

That was a good read, thanks for that!

 

[motman]

I have a great big stainless paddle that I noticed tiny air bubbles escaping from last brew day, from the weld point between handle and paddle. I figured that would probably get some wort in it, breed something filthy and then Pass it on to the next brew. Just an off the cuff item for you to check. I drilled a hole in the end so there was no expansion and subsequent contraction of pressurised air upon hearing and cooling.

Good luck!

 

[clintonforster]

Hey Guys,

Thanks Heaps everyone for your input, Tim Has put in heaps of ideas which i really appreciate.

Just to be really clear, I have brewed every single week since June last year since my problem started happening. Prior to this all my beers were africkenmazing and i was no wear near as anal as i am now, i wasn't even oxypering or anything, just rinsing with warm water and sanitizing the fermenter and all my beers were the best i've ever had.

• When my problems started I was brewing in a 15 litre pot on my gas stove.
• I have used every different type of store bought water and installed a one micron filter on my tap and when using tap water use quarter of a campden tablet.
• I have tried using an ice bath, wort chiller and cubing using a cube with no tap
• i have bought new plastic fermenters and new tubing 4 times.
• I then got an urn and now brew using that and constantly take out the tap and pbw it and clean it.
• I have tried fermenting in a brand new, stainless steel brew bucket
• The chest freezer i am currently using is brand new, before that i was fermenting in two small mini fridges
• I have tried sanitizing with phosphroric acid sanitizer, star san and iodophor.
• I have also brewed on other systems, cubed it, brought it back to my place to ferment (into a never used Stainless steel brewbucket) and gotten the same result.
• When i cube i push all the air out 100% no way there's air in there, the wort always smells amazing.
• The last brew i did i cubed it, then opened the cube to let air in and shook the crap out of it then pitched dry yeast straight in, all under the protection of a sanitized tea towel. i have been told rehydrating the yeast or using a yeast starter is just another place for the nasties to get in and i had this problem when i used to rehydrate the yeast as well.

Nothing i do seems to make any sort of difference. I could brew an amber ale, pale ale, lager, steam ale. No matter what the recipe, how i brew or what equipment i use the beer always ends up tasting exactly the same. Band aidy/ soapy, really bitter on the back of the tongue and not at all like beer to me.

I have taken a few samples to grain and grape and they've all had a try and are stumped. Some of them think it tastes good (to which i then reiterate it will taste like this no matter what recipe i do!)

I'm absolutely out of ideas and all i think about when i'm at work or anywhere is brewing. Least of all this has cost me lots for literally no result and any other options i have are going to cost me ( renting a space, installing a garage out the back of my house).

Totally jealous of everyone that does not possess this problem.

 

[TheWiggman]

I too had some dramas with my system albeit in the build, and was borderline manic by the end of it until I nailed the problem. Full credit to you for not totally losing your shit by now and that is very defeating.
My particular line of work revolves around correcting equipment problems and the biggest fault in coming up with solutions is not addressing the correct problem. Not saying you're wrong, but think about whether it is definitely a wild yeast that is causing your taste issues.

My last fermented brew had an unusual poly/vinyl taste about it that I thought might go away. It didn't and the brew ended up on my lawn. Everything I did in my process was the same except I used US05 and Galaxy. Having never used either for my own brews I thought it might be one of the other. I cast my mind back and realised that I had some handling issues with the Galaxy so assumed that was what caused it. That, or one of my kids threw something in the boil which I never rule out. Took it in my stride, but had to think hard about where it might have stemmed.

You're saying you're getting band aid flavours and the problems are recent. My limited knowledge and web searching points to yeast as the probable cause. The only thing you haven't discussed is the way you prepare your yeast.

Dry or liquid?
If dry, do you rehydrate and where/how?
If liquid to you direct-pitch or step up/start?
Do you use chlorine-based cleaner or sanitiser at any point?

If using unhydrated dry yeast then something's amiss.
I'd personally do a brew at a mate's place using their gear (a small simple one for the sake of cost) and swap fermenters. You take his home and leave yours at his place. Do all the cleaning at his place. Put the wort directly in the fermenter and then pitch the yeast dry at your place. Not the best way to handle wort but I've done it this way before with success.
Depending on results, you can confirm whether it is a locale issue or equipment issue. If you get the off flavours and he doesn't, then I honestly have no idea how the issue can be avoided as it is clearly ambient and short of brewing in a vaccuum, I think you're snookered.

Genuinely feel for you. Good luck.

 

[clintonforster]

I too had some dramas with my system albeit in the build, and was borderline manic by the end of it until I nailed the problem. Full credit to you for not totally losing your shit by now and that is very defeating.
My particular line of work revolves around correcting equipment problems and the biggest fault in coming up with solutions is not addressing the correct problem. Not saying you're wrong, but think about whether it is definitely a wild yeast that is causing your taste issues.

My last fermented brew had an unusual poly/vinyl taste about it that I thought might go away. It didn't and the brew ended up on my lawn. Everything I did in my process was the same except I used US05 and Galaxy. Having never used either for my own brews I thought it might be one of the other. I cast my mind back and realised that I had some handling issues with the Galaxy so assumed that was what caused it. That, or one of my kids threw something in the boil which I never rule out. Took it in my stride, but had to think hard about where it might have stemmed.

You're saying you're getting band aid flavours and the problems are recent. My limited knowledge and web searching points to yeast as the probable cause. The only thing you haven't discussed is the way you prepare your yeast.

Dry or liquid?
If dry, do you rehydrate and where/how?
If liquid to you direct-pitch or step up/start?
Do you use chlorine-based cleaner or sanitiser at any point?

If using unhydrated dry yeast then something's amiss.
I'd personally do a brew at a mate's place using their gear (a small simple one for the sake of cost) and swap fermenters. You take his home and leave yours at his place. Do all the cleaning at his place. Put the wort directly in the fermenter and then pitch the yeast dry at your place. Not the best way to handle wort but I've done it this way before with success.
Depending on results, you can confirm whether it is a locale issue or equipment issue. If you get the off flavours and he doesn't, then I honestly have no idea how the issue can be avoided as it is clearly ambient and short of brewing in a vaccuum, I think you're snookered.

Genuinely feel for you. Good luck.

Cheers mate but i've already done youre idea, brewed a double batch on a friends system, cubed it brought it home his is great, mine is not. I've tried every different recipe and every different type of yeast possible, always same result. :/

 

[panzerd18]

Consult a witch doctor, it seems to be your last hope.

Are you fermenting too cold? Have you tried a hot ferment?

 

[panzerd18]

Dump the biab and do a kit and kilo with no added chemicals. If you still get it at least you can isolate it to the fermenting process. If you don't you will know something is going on with the mash and boil.

 

[TheWiggman]

Cheers mate but i've already done youre idea, brewed a double batch on a friends system, cubed it brought it home his is great, mine is not. I've tried every different recipe and every different type of yeast possible, always same result. :/

Got specific answers to the questions though?

Dry or liquid?
If dry, do you rehydrate and where/how?
If liquid to you direct-pitch or step up/start?
Do you use chlorine-based cleaner or sanitiser at any point?

 

[panzerd18]

Medicinal
"These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors"

By John Palmer


If you ferment at a temperature too low. You could get these weird phenols production. People think lower temperature is better but only to a certain point.

 

[potof4x]

Hey,
I've had persistent infection problems over the last 2 years or so. The wild yeast leaves the beer hazy, devoid of malt and hops with a rotten fruit tang . When I've washed yeast I can see an ugly brown layer or dusting of black spots. I'll have a purple patch when I think I've beaten it only to have it return. In this time I've

-moved from a dry dusty town in an old house, to a brand new one to living next to a canal on the coast. The wild yeast came with, and now I have the black mould that covers everything around here making its way into my no chill cubes and stainless s fermentor as well.

-always been a biab no chiller, have thrown out innumerable cubes and hoses.

-tried fermenting in the cube, doing all sealed transfers. I have found in cubes even after filling right on flame out a light black dusting of mould when taking the lid off to pitch yeast.

-moved to using only dried yeast and no re pitching. O2 using a flow meter every batch. I'll use the pitching rates in Brewing Classic Styles rounded up to the nearest whole packet.

-brew only recipes from brewing classic styles to get some consistency in recipe formulation.

In my brewing the last 4 months I think I may have beaten the wild yeast. I read something interesting by Screwtop on here about the difference between a sanitiser and a disinfectant, and reevaluated my process again.
I have always leant heavily on Starsan.

Now
- I use a 90% water 5% bleach 5% vinegar 1/2 hr soak in my no chill cubes, along with any tap seals etc that won't stand boiling.
Mix up 2L of bleach and rotate and slosh the cube occasionally. Then rinse with boiling water and then Starsan.
Using the same solution I wet down my ferm fridge and preparation areas. Careful not to get any in the beer of course.

-boil all taps, hoses, fittings, lids, o2 stone, rehydrating schott bottle and stirbar.
Including getting a 3 piece kettle tap and dismantling and boiling for 15min.

- I have bought from woolies a carton of 250ml bottled waters to do all my yeast rehydrating to eliminate chlorine in that step that may damage the yeast. I wipe down the bottle with the bleach but otherwise use straight from the bottle.

The mould is a diminishing presence but is still visible in the krausen ring when cleaning the fermenter. I think throws some hot alcohol flavours, but I have bleached my brewery and unit externally as well and beers are tasting nearly as good as ever.

Hope there's something in the above that helps, keep trying to beat it. Treat it as a challenge!

Edit: trying to post a picture of Sealed transfer but incompetent with iPhone

 

[TimT]

Are you a member of Westgate Brewers? You could hook up with them and do some of the tests suggested in that link - ie, do a parallel brew with others at your house to test your system.

Though of course considering the extent of the problem and the expense involved I hope you've been using extract until you've found the solution!

 

[TimT]

^Or possibly link up with our club which possibly you have already done!

 

[clintonforster]

i'm indeed a merri masher Tim, heading to first meeting tonight, will get there around 8:30. The collab brew i did was with Mattias.

 

[manticle]

Medicinal
"These flavors are often described as mediciney, Band-Aid™ like, or can be spicy like cloves. The cause are various phenols which are initially produced by the yeast. Chlorophenols result from the reaction of chlorine-based sanitizers (bleach) with phenol compounds and have very low taste thresholds. Rinsing with boiled water after sanitizing is the best way to prevent these flavors"

By John Palmer


If you ferment at a temperature too low. You could get these weird phenols production. People think lower temperature is better but only to a certain point.

I've never heard of chlorephenols from fermenting at the lower end of the scale. I ferment at low ends all the time and have not experienced this flavour once from doing so. Do you have a source?