What Is The Future Of Beer

[bum]

That very song.

 

[Dazza_devil]

That very song.

Please enlighten us Bum, I'm not familiar with the words.

 

[bum]

Basically the gist is that we're controlled by fashion rather than need or want. Sorry for the massive derail. Not entirely off topic though. The future of beer is near unknowable the further you look into the future. Even as little as 10 years from now in the mega-swill market is pretty hard to pin down. Near impossible to even guess for the much more fickle craftbeer market. Why? The answer relies on not yet established trends.

 

[Curry]

Whilst I tend think along the lines of Belgian Beers and that is a big beer doesn't really start until you get above 8%, however I realise this will never happen in this country. Combined with what looks like more tax coming for high percentage beers (thanks Kevin), i.e. above that 'Australian mythical' number of 5%, I believe we will see the Craft Brewers form two lines of beers. What I mean is that Craft Brewers will have to produce a couple of very drinkable beers at or below 5% to remain viable BUT I hope they continue to offer us big beers whether permanently or seasonally thus differentiating themselves from the megaswill corporations.

Personally I believe we are at the height of the hoppy beers time in the sun and I suspect that we will move towards a more malty brewing phase.

Glenn, you asked me/us what you should be brewing. My answer is in two parts based on my spiel above, firstly for a more mainstream beer I reckon a nice German Weisse is the go. However I would love to see you make a big beer that hasn't really been seen over here before, maybe a triple IPA like the 'Pliny the Younger' from the Russian River Brewing Co.

Good luck and keep up the good work.

Cheers

 

[Fourstar]

Subliminal Advertising. It's rife.
'You can fool some of the people some of the time,
But you cant fool all the people all of the time'
Robert Marley
I think all the people want all of the time is a choice.

Fool me once, shame on? :unsure: Shame on you.... Fool me, you can't get fooled again! :blink:
George W. Bush

:lol:

 

[HoppingMad]

That's what I thought when I read that post. We have some brewers that claim to do but only 1 or 2 that actually do it.

I was taking more of a longterm future view with the comment to be honest.

I think that more Micros will definately jump on the 'Hop Monster' beer bandwagon, and this trend whilst big in the US is yet to run its course here. It certainly has given some breweries over there a profile and I'm sure more here will dabble with it to make themselves stand out.

But IMHO this is a bit of a fad and in 10 years time I wonder how many 'Hop Monster' beers will still be around. A beer beyond 40 IBU at the moment would struggle to get a market from your average punter (unless you count something with a following like Coopers which is 40-45 IBU). The ones that can combine high IBU with a balanced grain profile might go the distance. But look at Mountain Goat here in Vic, they have just removed their IPA to replace with a low IBU Steam Beer. And they are selling truckloads more.

There are a couple of brewers as you say that do it (big yankee hopping), Jamieson's 'Beast' is one high IBU beer I can think of, but its appeal is pretty niche. I think definately more micros emulate what NZ brewers like Epic do, and DogfishHead in the US do with their '60/90/120 minute IPAs' in the short term, but this fad for 'Hop Monsters' will run its course and wane.

Will be interesting to watch (and drink some of these experiments) though .

Hopper.

 

[dgilks]

I was taking more of a longterm future view with the comment to be honest.

I think that more Micros will definately jump on the 'Hop Monster' beer bandwagon, and this trend whilst big in the US is yet to run its course here. It certainly has given some breweries over there a profile and I'm sure more here will dabble with it to make themselves stand out.

But IMHO this is a bit of a fad and in 10 years time I wonder how many 'Hop Monster' beers will still be around. A beer beyond 40 IBU at the moment would struggle to get a market from your average punter (unless you count something with a following like Coopers which is 40-45 IBU). The ones that can combine high IBU with a balanced grain profile might go the distance. But look at Mountain Goat here in Vic, they have just removed their IPA to replace with a low IBU Steam Beer. And they are selling truckloads more.

There are a couple of brewers as you say that do it (big yankee hopping), Jamieson's 'Beast' is one high IBU beer I can think of, but its appeal is pretty niche. I think definately more micros emulate what NZ brewers like Epic do, and DogfishHead in the US do with their '60/90/120 minute IPAs' in the short term, but this fad for 'Hop Monsters' will run its course and wane.

Will be interesting to watch (and drink some of these experiments) though .

Hopper.

From what I understand Mountain Goat actually replaced the Pale Ale with the Steam Beer as they felt there were enough APAs in the market and so they couldn't compete. The IPA was withdrawn and is being replaced by the new IPA (but with more limited distro). Jamieson Beast is one of the beers but not one I was thinking of as IMHO it has too much of a malt profile and too much emphasis on the bittering additions rather than getting more of the IBUs from later addition that provide more flavour and aroma. The real brewers I'm thinking of are Feral (Hop Hog) and Murray's (Icon 2IPA). I really would like to see more beers like those and those from Epic. But now I'm sounding like a broken record so I should shut up.

 

[HoppingMad]

:icon_offtopic: Didn't realise the Mountain Goat IPA was coming back. That's awesome news. :icon_cheers:

Hopper.

 

[gregs]

If the aussie beer industry follows the wine industry wont we just find that we have wall to wall beers that we will really never know the subtle differences between because we could never taste them all. I was thinking today that a six pack of beers with different hops used in each would be fun. Find out the taste of each hop. You probably would have a hard time selling this one. Im just being lazy and dont want to do this for myself i guess.

I feel a bit like that every time I entre Dan Murphys just imagine whats available in the US. :huh:

 

[manticle]

For me it's all about beer being the drink of the working class... Best enjoyed with people that matter and the conversation being partially about beer and the rest about life in general.

Beer: A diverse range of beverages made for and by farmhands, peasants, monks and workers for thousands of years. Despite getting massively into this whole beer and brewing thing, I think you're right.

@Glenn:

I can't tell you what everyone else wants to see but the range of things I'm interested in brewing and buying are:

English ales, particularly towards the darker bigger end.
Belgian ales, as above
German and Eastern European malty, well bittered lagers and pale coloured ales
Preservative free all apple ciders (that actually taste like apples)

I'm also interested in sour/natural fermented beers but that might be a bit risky commercially.

Overhopped american style pales don't do as much for me. I can enjoy them but I'll reach for a pils, stout or a dubbel before I'll go for an AIPA. That said, darker American style hoppier beers I quite like.


@boagsy: The idea of coming up with our own rather than a copy is a good one. I think Baron's have tried to do that to an extent. Certainly not perfect beers but I like the effort they've made.

 

[jbowers]

That's what I thought when I read that post. We have some brewers that claim to do but only 1 or 2 that actually do it.

Even then, its not like they are producing outrageous version of the various styles. Some great beers, but nothing that's on the aggressive side of any category.

 

[floppinab]

There seems to be some confusion about why breweries brew lightly flavoured beer - its not harder to brew more flavoursome beer, its not particularly more expensive.

Thirsty I enjoy your contributions to the forum but I'm going to draw you on this one. You can't convince me that breweries haven't compromised on the flavour of their lighter fizzier beers with the prime motivation of cutting costs. It didn't happen overnight, and the impacts have been subtle over the course of many years but the introduction particularly of isohop (and lower use of any flavour/aroma hop), shorter fermentation and maturation periods, and to a lesser extent use of cheaper adjuncts have all had a negative impact on flavour at the end result.

I hear you saying that if that was the case then why hasn't market share been lost on poorer tasting beers then the simple answer to that is that market share isn't the ultimate game here, profitability is. And where monopolies or duopolies and signficant brand loyalty exist it doesn't take long for the sole competitor to quickly adopt the same technique and nobody really picks up on the subtle differences that takes place. When you get to that scale, cost is king, you cut costs first and worry about market share later.

I understand and agree with what you are saying about lighter beers. But don't try and tell me that a much kinder and longer fermentation profile (and a better tasting yeast to suit that profile) coupled with a longer lagering time with maybe some subtle real flavour and aroma hopping, producing a far better tasting beer that would sell just as well as what is out there now but require the huge capex and opex cost of triple (or more) the ferm and maturation capacity of a brewery, would cost not much more as whats out there today. It would come at a very signficant cost to the bottom line.

 

[Muggus]

Thirsty I enjoy your contributions to the forum but I'm going to draw you on this one. You can't convince me that breweries haven't compromised on the flavour of their lighter fizzier beers with the prime motivation of cutting costs. It didn't happen overnight, and the impacts have been subtle over the course of many years but the introduction particularly of isohop (and lower use of any flavour/aroma hop), shorter fermentation and maturation periods, and to a lesser extent use of cheaper adjuncts have all had a negative impact on flavour at the end result.

I hear you saying that if that was the case then why hasn't market share been lost on poorer tasting beers then the simple answer to that is that market share isn't the ultimate game here, profitability is. And where monopolies or duopolies and signficant brand loyalty exist it doesn't take long for the sole competitor to quickly adopt the same technique and nobody really picks up on the subtle differences that takes place. When you get to that scale, cost is king, you cut costs first and worry about market share later.

I understand and agree with what you are saying about lighter beers. But don't try and tell me that a much kinder and longer fermentation profile (and a better tasting yeast to suit that profile) coupled with a longer lagering time with maybe some subtle real flavour and aroma hopping, producing a far better tasting beer that would sell just as well as what is out there now but require the huge capex and opex cost of triple (or more) the ferm and maturation capacity of a brewery, would cost the same as whats out there today.

Well said Gav, i'd have to agree with that.

On another more personal note, i'm quite happy seeing certain Aussie breweries really stepping outside the square and take on note just other styles, but hybrid and experimental beers.
Recently i've come across likes of Murrays Endless Summer, James Squire Orchard Ale and Bridge Road Oak Aged Imperial Porter, and it's made me smile to see some Aussie brewers expanding the horizons as far as experimentation and hybrid styles go. Sure, they might not be as renowned or well-made as some of the American micros are, but these are early days.
I'm of the oppinion that we are on the cusp of having a microbeer scene similiar to that of the US, where breweries will have great standard beers that keep them going, yet the freedom to create others that are that little bit more special, experimental, and unique. The kind of beers that step outside the square and far beyond, and blow minds in the process. Only problem is, alot of it takes time.

 

[jbowers]

Well said Gav, i'd have to agree with that.

On another more personal note, i'm quite happy seeing certain Aussie breweries really stepping outside the square and take on note just other styles, but hybrid and experimental beers.
Recently i've come across likes of Murrays Endless Summer, James Squire Orchard Ale and Bridge Road Oak Aged Imperial Porter, and it's made me smile to see some Aussie brewers expanding the horizons as far as experimentation and hybrid styles go. Sure, they might not be as renowned or well-made as some of the American micros are, but these are early days.
I'm of the oppinion that we are on the cusp of having a microbeer scene similiar to that of the US, where breweries will have great standard beers that keep them going, yet the freedom to create others that are that little bit more special, experimental, and unique. The kind of beers that step outside the square and far beyond, and blow minds in the process. Only problem is, alot of it takes time.

What he said ^

That's exactly the point. We really shouldn't be worried about a saturation of 'out there' beers when it hasn't even happened. An ideal situation would be that the better breweries continue doing what they do - making awesome beers that appeal to a lot of people, giving them room to try out new things and, if viable, make them a part of their lineup ie. murrays endless summer apparently becoming a regular soon.

 

[Fourstar]

:icon_offtopic: Didn't realise the Mountain Goat IPA was coming back. That's awesome news. :icon_cheers:

Hopper.

I almost ordered it at a bar/restaurant gigibaba and then noticed they where charging 25 bucks for 600ml. :blink: I'd just prefer to goto the brewery and drink it fro 9 bucks a pint as im pretty sure its the same recipe as the one they serve locally.

 

[Bribie G]

CUB have been using isohop for the last 40 years at least and introduced the method to 'stabilise' the flavours of their beers due to fluctuations in the hops of the day rather than a cost cutting exercise.. they had to build a factory just to produce the stuff. TB would confirm. Also cane sugar has been used since time immemorial in Aussie lagers.

However I would agree about a longer lagering period. Ten days is pretty poor by any standard. I'm old enough to remember the Queensland beer strike, September to November 1979. It wasn't the brewery section that was on strike, it was the packaging department, and so they kept on brewing until the lagering tanks were full then just let the XXXX beer sit there for the duration. I remember that batch of XXXX when it eventually hit the pubs after a two month rest - it was nectar. Helped no doubt by Castlemaine Perkins using real hop flowers.

I popped out for a couple of pizzas yesterday and while I was waiting for them I got a tallie of XXXX heavy from Liquorland and chugged it in the car. It wasn't a bad drop really and I can definitely pick the Cluster hops and the rather fuller malt compared to a Carlton Draught or a Fosters.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thirsty I enjoy your contributions to the forum but I'm going to draw you on this one. You can't convince me that breweries haven't compromised on the flavour of their lighter fizzier beers with the prime motivation of cutting costs. It didn't happen overnight, and the impacts have been subtle over the course of many years but the introduction particularly of isohop (and lower use of any flavour/aroma hop), shorter fermentation and maturation periods, and to a lesser extent use of cheaper adjuncts have all had a negative impact on flavour at the end result.

I hear you saying that if that was the case then why hasn't market share been lost on poorer tasting beers then the simple answer to that is that market share isn't the ultimate game here, profitability is. And where monopolies or duopolies and signficant brand loyalty exist it doesn't take long for the sole competitor to quickly adopt the same technique and nobody really picks up on the subtle differences that takes place. When you get to that scale, cost is king, you cut costs first and worry about market share later.

I understand and agree with what you are saying about lighter beers. But don't try and tell me that a much kinder and longer fermentation profile (and a better tasting yeast to suit that profile) coupled with a longer lagering time with maybe some subtle real flavour and aroma hopping, producing a far better tasting beer that would sell just as well as what is out there now but require the huge capex and opex cost of triple (or more) the ferm and maturation capacity of a brewery, would cost not much more as whats out there today. It would come at a very signficant cost to the bottom line.

But the low carb beers are the counter to your argument.

They take longer and cost more to brew... but they are popular and by making a popular version of them, the big breweries get market share and make money. As are the BUL beers -- PITA to make compared to the local beer types, but we still make em and sell em.

I maintain my argument. More flavorsome beers are simply not particularly harder nor more expensive to make. A beer of the same style, that you personally find more palatable (I would too) because it more closely matches the beers that are made by German Mega Brewers rather than Australian ones - would be a bit more expensive to make. But still obviously possible at the mega brewer level, because most of those sorts of beers are in fact made by mega brewers - to suit their local palates. The German businessmen obviously being far less interested in making money than the Australian variety. Your argument addresses the notion that the big brewers make low quality beer, it says nothing about why they choose to make the type of beer they make. Light subtly flavoured beers.

Which is why my argument here hasn't been about making "better" beer, but about learning the lesson of which beers sell well in Australia - by looking at the types of beers that actually do sell well in Australia. And then applying the Micro Brewer's level of passion and art to them, to produce wonderful, light subtly flavoured beers - that will appeal not only to the beer geek market, but also to the wider beer drinking market.

 

[Dazza_devil]

So that's now but what about the future of beer?
Will our tastes as a nation on the whole change?
I think the micro-brewery is on the rise, is here in Tassie anyway. I hope it catches on.

 

[.DJ.]

consumers are so fickle and "stuck in their ways"

Perception takes a long time to change...

What do I think the future is? More VB, NEW, XXXX and "low carb". So really nothing changes...

What do I want it to be? Well due to our climate I would like to see a rise in Wheats and Saisons. I think the PERFECT beer for the australian climate has already been made. Murrays Whale Ale. Light, refreshing Wheat beer that is well balanced and not to "offensive" for want of a better word... Subtle flavours for the craft beer drinker aswell as being "Swill-able" for the masses...

But in a perfect world.. More IPA's!!!

 

[Muggus]

But in a perfect world.. More black IPA's!!!

Fixed.