Two Additions, One Hop - Tweaking No-chill

[BjornJ]

From reading of hops and hop extracts, it seems both the resin and essential oils can be extracted with liquid CO2.
Then they are separated into resin for bittering and essential oils for flavor/aroma.

Quoting the previously mentioned book, it says it was earlier done with alcohol but now with liquid CO2;




I thought it was not possible with alcohol, only with water but turns out you can use both.

Thinking of doing a massive dry-hop in my dark version of a golden ale after reading that part again

thanks
Bjorn

 

[Bribie G]

Yes I was under the impression that hop extract was just isohop - however I've had some very reasonable hop extract beers from Germany such as Bamberger Kaiserdom and Oettinger and they have a full gamut of hop flavour and aroma as well as the bitterness. As well as being labelled "hopsextract" And here's an interesting BribieG genuine recycled photo:



I would presume that's how they send it out in slabs to South Pacific breweries etc. You do get a bit of floral aroma and depth in Melbourne Bitter and other CUB beers and I had long wondered where that came from because I was under the impression that the extract they squirt it with on the way to the packing line was just iso. Apparently not.

Back on topic I polyclared the cube last night for bottling tomorrow and theived a small sample of the NZ hallertau lager with my turkey baster and it's turning out really really nice. More reports tomorrow.
I'm hoping to brew the identical recipe again tonight but this time, as experiment #2 I'll:

• Make 500 ml of hop tea out of 45g of Hallertau aroma
• Put the pressings in the hopsock and use for 90 mins bittering hops as last time
• Pour the tea into the nochill cube and pour the hot wort in.

I'm interested to find out if this blends in the flavours a bit better, more hop-back in flavour, maybe?

Just acquired Beersmith and I found out in one of their wiki articles that most breweries that use hop backs also recycle the hops back as part of the bittering for the next batch as they still contain heaps of useful bittering. So I'm doing something similar but adding them back into the current, not the next batch. So I may be on the right track here. :icon_cheers:

 

[RobB]

I'll be interested to read whether you pick up any harsh, grassy flavours or astringency. There has been some debate on this forum over whether water is appropriate for making hop-tea, or if you should use a more acidic solution (wort being the obvious answer). There you go - experiment #3!

I used the plunger for the first time on the weekend and although there was no hop recycling involved, I found a way to reduce my volume losses.

After I filled the cube, I collected the remaining break/hop/wort sludge in a preserving jar and sealed it. It looked like a litre of piping hot baby poo. Being a fairly small volume, it cooled quickly and after a couple of hours, I put it in the fridge.

The next morning, my cube was cool and the baby poo had split into two neat layers with crystal clear wort floating on a denser layer of break and hop material. I poured off the wort, re-boiled it for ten minutes and used it in the plunger with a styrian plug. While this steeped for a couple of minutes, I emptied the cube into the fermenter. The plunger was then plunged and the contents poured carefully into the rest of the wort, instantly chilling the hop-tea and hopefully locking in the late hop character.

Time will tell how well it worked. At best it might solve my no-chill aroma woes, at worst I've wasted a single plug of hops.

 

[Bribie G]

Someone at BABBs asked exactly the same question the other night and I thought about drawing off some wort from the tap when the boil was under way but before I had put the hop sock in. However that would be full of not-yet-broken proteins. However as you say, I could collect a litre of wort at the end of the boil and let it settle out in a Schott bottle and fridge the clear stuff until next brew. The other way would be to make up a miniwort with some LDME, probably wouldn't hurt and I guess a couple of tablespoonfuls wouldn't be detectable in the finished brew.

Edit: if it is genuinely a pH thing, then maybe a pinch of citric acid would be the go.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'll be interested to read whether you pick up any harsh, grassy flavours or astringency. There has been some debate on this forum over whether water is appropriate for making hop-tea, or if you should use a more acidic solution (wort being the obvious answer). There you go - experiment #3!

I used the plunger for the first time on the weekend and although there was no hop recycling involved, I found a way to reduce my volume losses.

After I filled the cube, I collected the remaining break/hop/wort sludge in a preserving jar and sealed it. It looked like a litre of piping hot baby poo. Being a fairly small volume, it cooled quickly and after a couple of hours, I put it in the fridge.

The next morning, my cube was cool and the baby poo had split into two neat layers with crystal clear wort floating on a denser layer of break and hop material. I poured off the wort, re-boiled it for ten minutes and used it in the plunger with a styrian plug. While this steeped for a couple of minutes, I emptied the cube into the fermenter. The plunger was then plunged and the contents poured carefully into the rest of the wort, instantly chilling the hop-tea and hopefully locking in the late hop character.

Time will tell how well it worked. At best it might solve my no-chill aroma woes, at worst I've wasted a single plug of hops.

Nice solution - I have been doing the same thing for a while by filtering my kettle trub through a tea towel... and re-boiling the wort part for a starter. Never twigged that it could be used for Ultra Late Hopping too, but its obvious when someone smarter than you points it out

I have had good results just using water... but that's with pellets, never tried with plugs or flowers - & of course, if there is a pain free way like yours to use wort and eliminate even the potential for the issue to occur, why wouldn't you?

Bribie/Bjorn - The extraction process for Pre-isomerised hop extract, at least at the CUB plant anyway, uses liquid (supercritical) C02. One of the by products of the process is a substance called Liquid C02 Base Extract.. its essentially all the oils and beta acids etc etc. They come out one end and alpha acids go out the other to be further processed to isomerise and purify them. We use Base Extract in our kettles (not every recipe) as both an anti foam agent and too add back "hoppiness" via the oils resins and add some bitterness too. So really what's happening is that the hops are being split up into their component parts and processed separately, then at least partly re-assembled during various stages of the brewing process. This reduces cost by dramatically increasing utilisation and by decreasing the complexity of the brewing plant, storage required etc etc etc.

And thats a similar notion to what you are doing with a hop tea. Your bewing includes no-chill... this is a change to your process you have made in order to save time, save money, reduce complexity.. whatever. But it has meant that your hops behave differently, so you have come up with a way to process them separately from the boil and re-combine the desirable components into your beer at a later stage. Bribies "double duty" process is especially on song, as he is not only getting a "better" result for his beer, he is actually forcing his hops to do two jobs instead of one and saving money. He's imporoved his process and made it cheaper at the same time .... the macro brewers of the world salute you Bribie G .....

 

[BjornJ]

Bribie,
the beer sounds quite like the lager I made last, except I used pilsner malt rather than galaxy malt.
I looked up the galaxy malt on craftbrewer.com.au just to have a read of it now, do you find it any different than base malt or pilsner malt?
Sounds like a good malt to use with rice adjuncts as well.

I used POR for bittering but late hallertauer so guessing it is profile wise something like your hallertauer hop tea. I used WLP830 german lager yeast. The bottles seem to have quite a bit of sulphur still, but hoping that it will go away.

Do you want to swap a bottle by mail again?
Wouldn;t mind tasting how the double use of a single hop thing works out,


thanks
Bjorn

 

[Bribie G]

Hi, been off this thread for a couple of weeks. TB, I blush at the thought of Carlton or Lion saluting me, more likely to send a hit man - Bjorn yes a bottle swap would be the go. I've finally succumbed to trying a bottle, only been bottled for a week so still a tad undercarbed (I bottled the whole batch in Bavaria Tallies).



And it's the best lager I've ever made, the balance between the NZ Hallertau flavour and aroma and the bittering is :icon_drool2: and I'm looking forward to what it will be like in three weeks or so.

As a reminder it's a standard Aussie type lager with Galaxy malt, Carapils and some Sugaz and 45g of NZ Hallertau flowers french pressed to yield 500ml of tea, the pressings being boiled in the hopsock for bittering and the hop tea poured in at the same time as pitching the yeast - S-189 run at around 14 then raised to ale temps for 2 days and lagered for ten days CUB style. I've got some German Hallertau from Ross and will repeat using the pellets to see how that goes.
As a further experiment I've done a second NZ Hallertau Lager with the other half of the shrink of hops (45g) and put the hop tea into the nochill cube and run the wort in, to see if it blends in smoother, but the #1 version is smooth as.

I'd been wondering if using the raw hop tea in the primary would result in vegetal or coarse flavours but nope.

Bjorn probably better to send this week before it gets too fizzy, PM addresses.

:icon_cheers:

 

[Nick JD]

Awesome, Michael I might get some Galaxy Malt and try your recipe/technique with B Saaz flowers. How do you think it'd go with 34/70? I don't have S189

 

[Bribie G]

Nick, the reason I use S-189 is because it renders a clean lager at 14 or 15 degrees so you don't have to wait till Xmas for a drink - although I give it at least ten days in cold crash to get rid of the sulphur and even then I should really be giving it three weeks. I've used 34/70 and it's great stuff but you can't rush it or you get fart beer
Also the second batch - fermenting now - was made on 4K Galaxy and 1K dry weight of rice.
I was talking to Ross and he says that some guys even get good results fermenting S-189 at ale temperatures but I haven't been game to do that yet. Nick as one of the notable kamikaze Samurai brewers on the forum that might be something for you to try

 

[Nick JD]

Nick, the reason I use S-189 is because it renders a clean lager at 14 or 15 degrees so you don't have to wait till Xmas for a drink - although I give it at least ten days in cold crash to get rid of the sulphur and even then I should really be giving it three weeks. I've used 34/70 and it's great stuff but you can't rush it or you get fart beer
Also the second batch - fermenting now - was made on 4K Galaxy and 1K dry weight of rice.
I was talking to Ross and he says that some guys even get good results fermenting S-189 at ale temperatures but I haven't been game to do that yet. Nick as one of the notable kamikaze Samurai brewers on the forum that might be something for you to try

Try it, I must, Sensei. h34r: Will get some stink-free yeast.

Which leads me to the next question. Would this work:?

In The Massive Pot chuck in say 5kg of long grain rice and simmer until gelatenized porridge then drain well and bag in 5 lots - then freeze.

For the mash just thaw and bring to grain temp and chuck in with grain bill with usual strike temperature? I'd use more rice if it wasn't a hassle.

 

[Steve]

That sounds great Bribie. So that was BB Galaxy and a kilo of rice and hallertau?..and yes S189 can be brewed warmer than normal lager yeasts. Done it before, works well. (That also was from Ross a few years ago).
Cheers
Steve

Edit: I have never had sulphur from S189 compared to W34/70.

 

[Bribie G]

I get a bit of sulphur from S-189 at low temperatures (say 13 degrees). Currently have one going at 17 degrees and just popped my head in the fridge, and there's little or no sulphur. Must be something to do with the yeast's metabolism at different temps? The one in the photo was Galaxy plus Carapils plus white sugar, and S-189

Yes the rice freezing should work fine, however for each portion I would thin it out a bit and warm it up to mash temperature, e.g. 65 degrees whatever and stir it in after the malt. I have a 10L stockpot with a six litre mark that I work to, and have got the hang of what level I need in the urn before adding.
What the American megabreweries do with their rice and maize is to add the boiling porridge ("cooker mash") to the malt mash that has been sitting at 50-something degrees for a protein rest and this brings the whole thing up to sach temperature. The maths would drive me nuts, but in any case this wouldn't be of much benefit with our highly modified malts.

 

[rendo]

Hi BribieG,

The best lager you have ever made... WOW...that is a big call. I am inspired. It looks marvellous!

Thank you (& on behalf of many others I am sure) for posting this thread and keeping us up to date with progress. I will be keen to hear the results of putting it in the no chill, using german hallertau etc etc. Please let us know. I have saved, printed, filed this thread in my brewing folder of beery happiness

I have a lager brewing at the moment that is using WLP830, you and screwy gave me a fair bit of advice. What about using this yeast? Or is it quite simlar to the 34/70?

Anyway, I know that once this lager is done, I will be doing another lager with your french pressing method. Will put the 'hop tea' in at the same time as the yeast. Might even give S-189 a go also

Rendo

Nick, the reason I use S-189 is because it renders a clean lager at 14 or 15 degrees so you don't have to wait till Xmas for a drink - although I give it at least ten days in cold crash to get rid of the sulphur and even then I should really be giving it three weeks. I've used 34/70 and it's great stuff but you can't rush it or you get fart beer
Also the second batch - fermenting now - was made on 4K Galaxy and 1K dry weight of rice.
I was talking to Ross and he says that some guys even get good results fermenting S-189 at ale temperatures but I haven't been game to do that yet. Nick as one of the notable kamikaze Samurai brewers on the forum that might be something for you to try

 

[Bribie G]

Yup Rendo, I must admit I've only fiddled with lagers so far as I haven't had a dead reliable temp control system, but bought a fridge last week from Mark at Nundah and wired up my box o death Fridgemate - haven't had so much fun since I did my Electrician badge in the boy scouts so it's lagerin time. The only liquid lager yeast I've used was Wyeast Urquell last year but a really good yeast as used by Tidal Pete is Wyeast Danish, I've had a couple of samples of his black stump lager and they were brilliant.

However I'm doing this brew today, French Pressed - UK yorkie style bitter with Challenger and EKG, I'll press the two together and split them between the boil and the pitch like I did with the NZ Hallertau. I'll use Ringwood yeast and looking forward to finding out what hop flavours and aromas eventuate.

(BribieG's first BeerSmith attempt )


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com

Recipe: Best Bitter
Brewer: Beachbum
Style: Special/Best/Premium Bitter
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 27.70 L
Estimated OG: 1.054 SG
Estimated Color: 16.8 EBC
Estimated IBU: 27.9 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.00 kg Pale Malt, Ale (Barrett Burston) (5.9 EBC)Grain 77.67 %
0.50 kg Munich Malt - 10L (19.7 EBC) Grain 9.71 %
0.25 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 20L (39.4 EBC) Grain 4.85 %
0.10 kg Caraaroma (256.1 EBC) Grain 1.94 %
20.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (90 min) Hops 11.2 IBU
20.00 gm Challenger [7.50 %] (90 min) Hops 16.7 IBU
1.00 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.30 kg Cane (Beet) Sugar (0.0 EBC) Sugar 5.83 %
1 Pkgs Ringwood Ale (Wyeast Labs #1187) [Starter Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out
Total Grain Weight: 4.85 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, No Mash Out
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 27.70 L of water at 70.8 C 67.8 C


Notes:
------
More Malt driven, Yorkshire type water treatment and Ringwood Yeast. Hops to be french pressed, the pressings used in the boil for bittering, the hop tea to be added at pitching.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: the figures that BS calculated are based on a straight 90 min hop addition, I'm playing with the figures to see what it reckons various lengths of boil or dry hops would produce. Hard one.

 

[BjornJ]

Bribie, forgot to get back to this thread now and only thought of it as I was contemplating testing your experiment

Will send you a bottle of mine,

Bjorn

 

[black_labb]

a bit off topic but i'm just bringing up a thought on cube hopping. its been talked about and agreed on that no chill adds bitterness by having the hops in the wort at near boiling levels for a period of time. most people agree that adding 15-20 mins to the actual boil time is an accurate way to predict the ibu when using a beer recipe programs.
i havent seen it mentioned but it should also be noted that the aroma from the hops should not be lost as the essential oils are not being boiled off or lost as steam as the cube is sealed, so any oils or flavours that eveporate condense as the wort cools and come back into the wort. the hops also stay in contact with the wort for longer as nc waits 12 hours or longer as it cools. the only way to possibly get more flavour is dry hopping after high krausen as some oils may escape with the co2 from the fermentation, but comparing the efficiency of these 2 methods for extracting aroma is over my head at this stage.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Except the heat itself causes chemical changes to the hop oils - so the flavour and aroma is different in a beer that has had cube hops added. Its still there, and reasonably strongly - but it has a different character to late kettle hops, a different character to hop tea hops, and a drastically different character to dry hops.

French press hopping is about the most aggressive way to get hop aroma compounds into your beer. It emulates the properties of a hopback quite closely, by using heat to dissolve out the aroma compounds - but then very rapidly chilling the "tea" down so the effect of the heat on the chemical compounds is minimised along with volatilisaton - and you would of course add your tea after the majority of fermentation is complete to avoid blowing all your aroma out the airlock... thats one of the key reasons for using a hop tea.

I put hops in almost all of my no-chill cubes where I am looking for a strong aroma component... and I also frequently use Ultra Late Hops with a French press... cube hops give a great deep long lasting aroma and an especially profound hop flavour - but for sheer punch in the nose hop-back style aroma, the hop tea is distinctly more effective.

TB

 

[Nick JD]

French press hopping is about the most aggressive way to get hop aroma compounds into your beer.

Hop suppository ... much more aggressive.

 

[black_labb]

Except the heat itself causes chemical changes to the hop oils - so the flavour and aroma is different in a beer that has had cube hops added. Its still there, and reasonably strongly - but it has a different character to late kettle hops, a different character to hop tea hops, and a drastically different character to dry hops.

French press hopping is about the most aggressive way to get hop aroma compounds into your beer. It emulates the properties of a hopback quite closely, by using heat to dissolve out the aroma compounds - but then very rapidly chilling the "tea" down so the effect of the heat on the chemical compounds is minimised along with volatilisaton - and you would of course add your tea after the majority of fermentation is complete to avoid blowing all your aroma out the airlock... thats one of the key reasons for using a hop tea.

I put hops in almost all of my no-chill cubes where I am looking for a strong aroma component... and I also frequently use Ultra Late Hops with a French press... cube hops give a great deep long lasting aroma and an especially profound hop flavour - but for sheer punch in the nose hop-back style aroma, the hop tea is distinctly more effective.

TB

thats good to know. thanks.

i might try the hop tea for my next brew instead of late hops.

what do you think about adding the hop tea with the priming sugar when bulk priming? absolutely no blowing aroma out as it will be trapped in the bottle in the next 20 mins.

 

[Bribie G]

thats good to know. thanks.

i might try the hop tea for my next brew instead of late hops.

what do you think about adding the hop tea with the priming sugar when bulk priming? absolutely no blowing aroma out as it will be trapped in the bottle in the next 20 mins.

I've done this in the past, although it was with a bit of cascade in a UK bitter and it was so successful that it stomped all over my Fuggles and Goldings... quite drinkable though ... I'd make sure it's a hop that is going to fit in with the existing hops.

On topic I'm bringing some bottles of the NZ Hallertau lager to BABBs in a couple of weeks for a sniff and a taste. :icon_cheers: