Cube chilling- possible alternative to hop additions

[TwoCrows]

No chill wort cooling / cube chilling with high hopped beers.

If you like hoppy IPA / APA 's.

I have been thinking about the offset times needed for hop additions when cubing, 60 minutes becomes 45 and 15 minutes becomes flame out and so on.

The addition of large amounts of hops at the end of a boil going into the cube and the unknown amount of IBU's / bittering.

If you were to do all additions to the boil excluding the 60 minute bittering addition and then when filling the cube with wort add the bittering 60 min addition to the cube.


Example...

Possible Mash hop

Possible Fwh addition

No 60 minute hop !!

Possible 40min

Possible 30min

Possible 20min

Possible 15min

Possible 5min

Flame out

Whirlpool @82 degrees Celsius

Wort into cube on top of 60 min bittering hop addition.


My question is..

Would this method work out similar to a standard / normal brew days hop additions?

ie: Similar bittering as a 60 min boil as the cube will be around 80 degrees and then begining the slow cool down, would this time in the cube at this temp be enough to impart satisfactory bittering.

Adding a 60 min addition to the cube, say 20 grams, sounds better than adding 100 grams plus of late addition hops and chancing it.

 

[Rocker1986]

There's no need for a 60 minute boil addition to become 45 minutes because of no chill. The difference between 60 and 75 minutes boiling is **** all in terms of bitterness extracted. It's only the late additions that are really affected by it.

I also can't see how adding a 60 minute "bittering" addition to a cube at 80 degrees would give anywhere near the amount of bitterness that boiling it for 60 minutes would. A lot of people cube hop for flavor and aroma, not bitterness.

It's not that hard to account for it anyway, when I design APA recipes I add all the flameout and either 5 or 10 minute additions first, and then top up the IBUs with a proper 60 minute addition or FWH addition if required. I don't even bother to account for no-chilling it. Whether or not the calculated IBU figure is accurate I don't know, but if I brew them to between 35-40 calculated IBUs, they end up as intended in the glass, so

 

[TwoCrows]

Quote:There's no need for a 60 minute boil addition to become 45 minutes because of no chill. The difference between 60 and 75 minutes boiling is **** all in terms of bitterness extracted. It's only the late additions that are really affected by it.

So you have not had an issue with late addition hops in the cube @ 80 and then cooling down adding extra bittering the wort.
I have not yet used the cube chill method as yet.
I like the flavor and aroma in my beers , but not a fan of high bitter at the end.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Late addition hops in a cube will add to bitterness and harshness in a no chill, what I have done is leave out the aroma/flavour additions until going into the fermenter, either boil up some wort or water add those additions at flameout steep for 20 mins and put into the fermenter with the rest of the wort pitch yeast.
Gordon Strong covers this in his book,and he only adds his bittering hops 20 minutes before the end of boil to be sure the oxygen has dissipated from the wort, obviously he adds more hops to compensate.

 

[Dae Tripper]

Late addition hops in a cube will add to bitterness and harshness in a no chill, what I have done is leave out the aroma/flavour additions until going into the fermenter, either boil up some wort or water add those additions at flameout steep for 20 mins and put into the fermenter with the rest of the wort pitch yeast.
Gordon Strong covers this in his book,and he only adds his bittering hops 20 minutes before the end of boil to be sure the oxygen has dissipated from the wort, obviously he adds more hops to compensate.

My IPAs prove that wrong, no harshness to the bittering and a shade over 50 IBU (don't make me check).

TwoCrows
My go IPA to is 10 min IPAs and doing in no chill is a negative 10 min IPA.
How you could say that a cube hop is an unknown is puzzling, it will cool at a given rate determined by a few factors, and many are insignificant.
Don't be fooled by 60min additions as a must have, it is all about time and temp. Work with any addition but take 20 min off when no chilling works really well and very predictable. Also I would limit temperature drops before cubing, get it in as soon as you can otherwise you are just asking for an infection.

 

[Rocker1986]

So you have not had an issue with late addition hops in the cube @ 80 and then cooling down adding extra bittering the wort.
I have not yet used the cube chill method as yet.
I like the flavor and aroma in my beers , but not a fan of high bitter at the end.

You won't really get any bitterness (in terms of IBUs) from hops added at 80C while the wort cools down because it falls below isomerisation temperatures, was what my point was. Hops added at this point will add mainly flavor and aroma, they are nothing like doing a full 60 minute hop boil, which primarily adds bitterness. I haven't tried a cube hop yet, but in any case my wort goes into the cube somewhere around 90C after a 20 minute stand in the kettle. If you don't like the level of bitterness then perhaps this method will work better, but I wouldn't be waiting for the wort to hit 80C before cubing it. Like Dae Tripper said, it should be cubed as soon as possible, obviously allowing for hot break to drop out first.

When I say I don't adjust any additions, it's probably more a case of working out over a few batches when to add the later additions to achieve the beer I'm aiming for. What I've settled on was in my previous post, reasonably large flameout and 5 or 10 minute additions, with a small early addition if needed. And a generous dry hop in the fermenter later on. I also don't find any harshness in the beers, to my palate they don't taste any different in that regard to any commercially brewed pale ales.

Like I said, there's no point moving 60 minute additions back to 40 or 45 minutes because the effect of no-chilling on a full 60 minute addition (i.e. making it like a 75 minute addition) is maybe 1 or 2 IBUs increase at the most. You are not going to taste that at the glass. It's the additions from 20 mins down to flameout/whirlpool that are affected more by the process, and these are the ones that you need to muck around with to achieve what you're aiming for, while perhaps removing the early addition altogether if necessary.

Even then, the rate of isomerisation drops as the temperature drops below boiling, everyone has different perceptions and preferences as well. It's for this reason that I don't agree with a "one size fits all" approach to it. The best way to attack it is to experiment with different timings and work out what works best to suit your own tastes. Other no-chillers use different schedules to me because that's what works best for them.

 

[Gelding]

You won't really get any bitterness (in terms of IBUs) from hops added at 80C while the wort cools down because it falls below isomerisation temperatures, was what my point was.

thats the science, but its simply incorrect to say it doesn't add bitterness.

Isomerised alpha acids = IBU's bu that is not the only thing that can make your beer bitter.

 

[Rocker1986]

thats the science, but its simply incorrect to say it doesn't add bitterness.

Isomerised alpha acids = IBU's bu that is not the only thing that can make your beer bitter.

Hence the "in terms of IBUs" in brackets.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Definitely does add some bitterness, but the harshness I quite like when finishing a pint I like a couple of minutes of that harsher hop flavour at the back of my tongue.

 

[indica86]

Have a play and work out what works for you. As you can see Rocker and Wide have two different palates and experiences.
I no chill. Usually FWH then flameout. I don't need to adjust a recipe because I make mine up with me and my gear in mind, I have an IPA boiling now. 200 g at flameout will be the go.

 

[TwoCrows]

Cheers guys for your input, I am not a fan of bitter beers per-say , floral and fruity but not to sweet is my preference.
There are many ways to skin a cat they say and brewing is one of them.
I have read a bit lately. Water conditioning ,mashing , lautering , cooling fermenting and their are many ways to end up with great beer.

I am currently building a parallel cooler 12 mtrs long , 6 out and 6 back along my brew shed/ garage. As there is room and pvc seals up great this should be clean and sanitary Hope it does the trick!!

 

[rude]

Give us a photo when you finish
that would be geat

 

[beerbrewer76543]

I do a 60 minute addition for the bitterness level I want.

At the end of the boil I let it cool to 80 degrees in the kettle with the lid off (takes 30 minutes) then transfer to cube and add the flavour hop addition.

 

[Lionman]

I have tried a couple of different ways and continue to experiment.

My best IPAs are about 40% IBU from FWH additions and 60% from cube additions. This is wort sent sent straight to the cube, with cube IBUs calculated as 15min additions. Kegs made like this don't last long.

I've tried playing with letting the wort cool before cubing and I don't think the beer is as good. Its missing bitterness that I really enjoy, that bitterness you get from late hop additions that really lingers on the tongue. I found them a bit 'meh', but maybe i was just too tight with the quantity of hops.

I plan on doing it a bit different at some stage, I will do a FHW addition, then flameout addition while it cools to 80 (hop stand?) then a cube addition. I think this will give a good breadth of hop bitterness and flavours and make for a nice complex IPA.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I was reading an article today (Mr Wizard BYO)which was interesting,also this one https://www.morebeer.com/category/secret-big-hop-aroma-flavor.html adding hops and not chilling I have read before can lead to astingancy so what I percieve as bitterness could be that, but I do quite like it, though some say they find it hard to drink.

 

[unwrittenlaw]

Are the hops added to the cube just as whole pellets or are they steeped and strained then added? Does this extra bit of hop trub become a nuisance later kegging in terms of blocking dip tubes/posts? Or would a 4 day cold crash once ferment is finished drop most of it out?

I am working out recipes on brewers friend at the moment using the no chill option set to 20mins. Glad I figured it out as it adds about 25 IBU overall.

Regards

BIAB No Chill noob

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I have just tried steeping my flame out additions and adding to the fermenter with the cooled wort, something that has to be played around with, as for cold crashing I was watching a Charlie Bamforth podcast last night he reckons that a cold crash of -1 degree for 24 hours is better than a week at 2 degrees C.

 

[beerbrewer76543]

I throw everything from the kettle into the cube and then everything from the cube into the fermenter. Crash chill for a couple of days at 1*C and add gelatine and the beer comes out crystal clear with no off flavours.

 

[Lionman]

Are the hops added to the cube just as whole pellets or are they steeped and strained then added? Does this extra bit of hop trub become a nuisance later kegging in terms of blocking dip tubes/posts? Or would a 4 day cold crash once ferment is finished drop most of it out?

I am working out recipes on brewers friend at the moment using the no chill option set to 20mins. Glad I figured it out as it adds about 25 IBU overall.

Regards

BIAB No Chill noob

I filter the wort through a hop spider between the cube and the fermenter.

 

[Schikitar]

I filter the wort through a hop spider between the cube and the fermenter.

I like that idea, I've been using a strainer but the hop mess that comes out the bottom of the cube soon renders the strainer useless, do you have any blockage issues using the hop spider this way?