Throw Out Your Cubes

[Tim F]

If there's a chance Clostridium can survive in a no chill cube why are people less worried about it making it into fermenting or finished beer? From reading it is alcohol tolerant and can grow in an environment with up to 2% O2. Again just googling around but you can dissolve maximum around 8mg/L of O2 in wort when aerating which is .8% unless my math escapes me. Maybe I am missing something obvious, it is bed time

 

[tavas]

If there's a chance Clostridium can survive in a no chill cube why are people less worried about it making it into fermenting or finished beer? From reading it is alcohol tolerant and can grow in an environment with up to 2% O2. Again just googling around but you can dissolve maximum around 8mg/L of O2 in wort when aerating which is .8% unless my math escapes me. Maybe I am missing something obvious, it is bed time

8ppm equals 8 mg/l.

8ppm equals 0.0008%. Yes you missed a couple of zeros.

 

[JDW81]

8ppm equals 8 mg/l.

8ppm equals 0.0008%. Yes you missed a couple of zeros.

No chill really no different to any other aspect of existance, there are risks involved. I might get hit by a car when I cross the street so I look both ways and cross at the lights. Could I still get cleaned up? Yes, but I've taken measures to minimise the risk. It's worked for me thus far.

IMHO no chill is the same. Is there a risk of CB (or other infection)? Of course there is, but I clean and sanitise like a fiend to minimise the risk. I can never be 100% sure that everything will be fine, but I risk manage to the best of my ability. If a cube is swollen or smells funky then down the drain it goes and I clean the cube to within an inch of it's life, or chuck it and buy a new one. Once again, it has worked thus far, my beer is pretty good and no one has died.

This has certaiinly been an interesting twentysomething pages though.

JD

 

[Dazza88]

You might get hit by a no-chill cube while crossing the street.

 

[JDW81]

You might get hit by a no-chill cube while crossing the street.

Hopefully an uninfected one

 

[DJR]

The hops/CB link is pretty old - i can't believe we are still having this conversation.

We have been no-chilling for what now, at least 6-7 years including the ND brewing fresh wort kits and that guy from Wollongong whose name escapes me right now, no botulism cases returned, IMHO darren, give it up already

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=186810

 

[Feldon]

Dr K said it in his first post and no one with a modicum of sense has posted anything that suggests it is a problem. The hurdles to infection are just too many - I've mentioned most of them, all of them have been talked about (even if they do seem to be misunderstood too) - to make the chance of a CB infection anything other than stupidly remote.

I posted an extract from a scientific paper that showed that CB spores can survive the mashing process and be present in the spent grain, in spite of boiling temps, hops etc. Two points arise:

(1) For spores to be found in the spent grain, they would have to have been present in the grain pre-mash.

(2) If spores are present in the post mash grains they would also be present in the wort.

CB spores are not toxic - it is the toxin they produce when they actively germinate (if that's the right word) that kills. So the question is: are the anerobic and temperature conditions of a no chill cube suitable for germination?

Also, the argument that in thousands of years of brewing there has never beeen a reported case of beer causing botulism poisoning is misleading. The no chill method is a historically recent innovation. The currently accepted position that beer cannot be a vehicle for botulism means that doctors, coroners etc have discounted the possibilty and they seek to lay the blame on other sources.

We need to also remember that botulism poisoning, regardless of its source, is a very rare occurence. So its infrequency with regards to brewing is no different to its infrequency with regards to any other food stuff.

Botulism is a bit like legionaire's disease in that it is very rare, but when it does manifest itself it is lethal. With legionaire's disease we can minimise the risk by keeping our air-cons clean, because dirty air-cons seem to be the vehicle for growing and spreading the bug. But with brewing and botulism we can't 'clean' the pre-mash grain, can we?

Edit: I wrongly implied in the above that the mashing process involved boiling the grain, which is not usually done. But elsewhere in this thread it has been stated that CB spores are only denatured at temps above 121 degrees C. So the general idea of spores surviving the boil (~100 degrees C) to be present in the resulting wort would still stand.

 

[Tim F]

8ppm equals 8 mg/l.

8ppm equals 0.0008%. Yes you missed a couple of zeros.

LOL I did say it was bed time
But that means, like I was saying, that the dissolved oxygen in wort after aeration is below the limit of what clostridium can tolerate. So if there's a risk of the bacteria growing in a NC cube there must also be a risk of it growing in fermenting beer. If I got something profoundly obvious wrong again my excuse this time will be I haven't had my coffee yet.

 

[SJW]

To chill or not chill, that is the question.
I was the biggest advocate for no chilling a few years back until I had one swell. In over 200 brews, chilled and no chilled that was the only brew I had ever dumped. Since then I chill, ferment then drink.
But as I am awaiting the arrival of my BM, I suspect I will do a few no chillers, as my drinking capacity wont keep pace with my need to brew on my new toy.
As for botulism............I bet my left nut and $6 that non of us will ever die from it

 

[RobW]

After talking to a food scientist the other night I hope to nail this soon.

His advice is that the AW value of wort is the most significant factor here but acidic wort pH and the action of hop acids also play a part, possibly in a symbiotic manner.

He's offered to analyse the AW of some wort samples for me and in addition I may be able to get hold of some C. bot spores to inoculate some boiled wort with and see if anything will grow.

Hopefully we can then have some hard empirical evidence.

I hope to brew in the next week or so and will report back with the results.

 

[the_new_darren]

I though this was an interesting post from Dazdog to throw some bugs to the pidgeons.

http://foodct.com/2011/10/10/utah-inmates-...on-brewed-beer/

Utah Inmates Stricken with Botulism after Drinking Prison-Brewed Beer
According to AP reports Utah health officials are investigating a suspected botulism outbreak in 12 inmates who may have contracted the disease after drinking alcohol homebrewed inside a prison cell.

Salt Lake Valley Health Department spokesman Nicholas Rupp says eight men were hospitalized, three of which are in critical condition Wednesday. Four inmates also are being treated at the prison.

Department of Corrections officials say the inmates drank the home-brewed alcohol over the weekend. The first of the inmates became ill on Sunday.

Health officials say foodborne botulism is a rare, but serious illness that can cause paralysis. Its caused by a nerve toxin that is produced by bacteria.

Rupp says the eight hospitalized inmates have been treated for the disease with an anti-toxin obtained from the Centers for Disease Control.

Many cases of botulism are preventable. Foodborne botulism has often been from home-canned foods with low acid content, such as asparagus, green beans, beets and corn and is caused by failure to follow proper canning methods. In this case it was a failure likely in the bottling or fermentation process. However, seemingly unlikely or unusual sources are found every decade, with the common problem of improper handling during manufacture, at retail, or by consumers; some examples are chopped garlic in oil, canned cheese sauce, chile peppers, tomatoes, carrot juice, and baked potatoes wrapped in foil.

Persons who do home canning or home brewing should follow strict hygienic procedures to reduce contamination of foods, and carefully follow instructions on safe home canning including the use of pressure canners/cookers as recommended through county extension services or from the US Department of Agriculture. Oils infused with garlic or herbs should be refrigerated. Potatoes which have been baked while wrapped in aluminum foil should be kept hot until served or refrigerated.

Because the botulinum toxin is destroyed by high temperatures, persons who eat home-canned foods should consider boiling the food for 10 minutes before eating it to ensure safety. Most infant botulism cases cannot be prevented because the bacteria that causes this disease is in soil and dust. The bacteria can be found inside homes on floors, carpet, and countertops even after cleaning. Honey can contain the bacteria that causes infant botulism so, children less than 12 months old should not be fed honey. Honey is safe for persons 1 year of age and older.

tnd

 

[stux]

I wonder if their "homebrewed alcohol" had hops in it

Doubt it.

 

[DJR]

Have you ever seen prison beer? Usually fermented in a bag from juice, no hops and very poor sanitation. It's a wonder they even call it beer

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pruno

I'm not reading into that story until there is any proof they used a no-chill cube or hops in the recipe. IMHO the same risks could affect chillers if you had shit ingredients, sanitation and practices

 

[benno1973]

Have you ever seen prison beer? Usually fermented in a bag from juice, no hops and very poor sanitation. It's a wonder they even call it beer

An experimental example of prison wine...

 

[kieran]

So the question is: are the anerobic and temperature conditions of a no chill cube suitable for germination?

Without hops, maybe (but with, Cb will not germinate if wort in cube has >5ppm Beta acids in it.).

Perhaps that's where the prison thing comes from - no hops (their "wort" could also have had a high Aw).

I doubt a full lab analysis was done on their brewjailhouse.

 

[HoppingMad]

Are we there yet? After 22 pages of this I want an ice cream.
Great to read the terms 'chill vs no-chill' and 'Do a search FFS' after such a long absence of such comments from AHB. Some things never change here!

I reckon:

- No two brewers brew the same way. A point made a fair bit in Gordon Strong's 'Brewing Better Beer' if you've happened to have read a copy of late. So if your process works for you stick to it. Whether that's chill or no-chill. Why go changing?
- I've done ok at Nationals and State level no-chilling (including a no-chilled lager which took a top slot) so I'm sticking with my method and won't be throwing out my cubes as they're going great guns for me. No-chill does work. You too may have cleaned up on the award front by chilling instead, and that's awesome too and more power to you.
- The Wizard was mentioned (BYO writer) as a no-chill hater - he is a great author and a commercial brewer but please note he's a yank who like most of them are petrified of no-chill and doesn't actually use the method from what I can find. His argument is with the science of it. Which most folks can't get their head around. I can't either but I maintain it works.
- According to BYO 2009 Australian Edition - us Aussies came up with no-chill/cubin'. We should celebrate having this option since this idea was was born and bred here! The no-chill cube is up there with Lamingtons, Vegemite and the Owen Machine gun as one of our top Australian inventions people!
- Botulism? Haha hilarious - that word seems to have had plenty here riled up. But I do agree with Thirsty Boy and the gist of Darren's comments that if your wort filled cube smells like infected vomit and is swollen up then don't waste a yeast on it. There can be a risk that if you don't get your wort into the cube piping hot it will go rancid.
- On the above point I do agree that cubing is another step to get a possible infection, but so is putting a badly cleaned chiller coil in your wort so they're pretty much neck and neck. Clean & sterilise as you would on any other piece of gear and there's no issue.
- On a serious note I do think some of Dr K's points are valid - his comment on less cleaning with a chiller has got me thinking a bit - it would certainly take less effort for me to clean a coil than two cubes on a double batch I reckon, so it has got me thinking on its merits. I may well cross over at some point.

Nuff said - do what makes you happy folks, then if it makes beer at the end of it all, enjoy the darn thing.

Cheers,

Hopper.

 

[WarmBeer]

Dude, why did you have to go and zombie this thread.

Subject is dead and gone, let it rest.

:icon_cheers:

 

[RobW]

I'm gonna give it another poke too.
Just had some wort analysed in a food lab.

The SG was 1.066 and the AW value came back as 0.96.

Given the C. botulinum AW inhibition values of

Type A 0.95

Type B 0.94

Type E 0.97

I think it's fair to conclude only Type E would be inhibited (and maybe not even Type E in a lower gravity wort).

 

[ekul]

Prison beer doesn't have to comply with the reinheitsgebot and as such doesn't have to include barley or hops. This liberation from the reinheitsgebot allows the brewers to experiment with nonconventional ingredients. This freedom of expression by the brewer, combined with the common practice of open fermentation results in refreshing tart beverage with sour undertones.

Anyway, its not surprising that prison 'beer' results in botulism. It's rotten food and water.

Also check out this thread on old cubes. Seems wuite a few people are keeping cubes for extended periods of time with a potential good effect on the beer http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=63213

 

[kieran]

I'm gonna give it another poke too.
Just had some wort analysed in a food lab.

The SG was 1.066 and the AW value came back as 0.96.

Given the C. botulinum AW inhibition values of

Type A 0.95

Type B 0.94

Type E 0.97

I think it's fair to conclude only Type E would be inhibited (and maybe not even Type E in a lower gravity wort).

Thanks for posting that RobW! Very interesting.
I wonder what SG/OG you need to get an AW of <0.94 then?

So it's down to the hop Beta acids then.