Starting an Electric Brew control panel for AG brewing

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Haha, no you're fine. Any thread about making electrical panels should have this discussion.

I'm still not comfortable about the panel meters blowing and want to investigate why before I try it again. Also I will hook up the PIDs one by one before connecting the expensive auger timer.
 
Just remember electric brewery is US electric not Aussie
 
Grainer said:
Just remember electric brewery is US electric not Aussie

Is that in reference to the fact they have wiring diagrams up on the net? USA doesn't care who does electrical wiring.

As for everything else I put a lot of research into finding the right parts for this build in 240V and not 120V.

Wiring should be this: (FROM HERE)



<<images removed>>


The most annoying part is the correct way to mount the Relays is upside down to this pic. At least that going on the text printed on the plastic cover.
 
I fully expect to get shot down for this comment, but it'll all work out mate ... it sucks to be blowing meters and spending extra cash, but at the end of the day we're (and anyone else making their own panels) are taking the risks and when everything ultimately works it will all be sweet. I fully expect to destroy half the stuff I bought for my CP, but as long as I'm sensible about power/electricity and my touching stuff with current going through things, it doesn't bother me if stuff starts blowing ... its part of the adventure.
 
My $0.02, ditch the DC meters and get AC ones.
That way you skip 2 sensitive components (step down transformer and AC > DC power supply) and just use your native 240VAC straight into the meters. Conceptually simpler and much simpler to wire.
No shunt for the amp meter either, 240VAC amp meters measure using an induction transformer (a donut that the wires you wish to measure the current of run through the hole in the middle).
 
If you can find me some in that 3&1/2 mounting hole I'm all for the 240v meters. Can't seem to find them though. I'm open to analog ones too.
 
Crouch said:
I fully expect to get shot down for this comment, but it'll all work out mate ... it sucks to be blowing meters and spending extra cash, but at the end of the day we're (and anyone else making their own panels) are taking the risks and when everything ultimately works it will all be sweet. I fully expect to destroy half the stuff I bought for my CP, but as long as I'm sensible about power/electricity and my touching stuff with current going through things, it doesn't bother me if stuff starts blowing ... its part of the adventure.
Shooting down begins, well not really just cautions... When I built my panel,I went out of my way to understand what I was installing.. making sure that my wires and parts were connected up correctly.. I don't believe you should expect to blow parts up.. Just working off a plan which has been online doesn't mean you can blindly go wiring it up and assume it's going to work.. You need to fully understand that you're playing with 220volts! kill you type stuff...
When I sourced my parts I checked the diagrams, worked out how they worked... checked the 'the electric brewery' plans, checked if this suits my wiring then double check, drew them down, checked again, if i wasn't sure I asked... expecting to blow parts up so you can get your panel out "quicker" shouldn't be a given in any project.. the end result should be a well understood build which was undertaken safe as possible, if it comes out cheap great.. remember you can't buy back from death like games so doesn't really mater how much you save on a unsafe project.

Saying that, I had fallen into the QUICK GET IT DONE category previously, I've been zapped a few times to which shifted the way I do projects in the future. You can only handle so many jolts to the hand before your luck runs out and your a burnt biscuit..

just a caution from a previous project rusher.. If I've missed the mark then I'm sorry.. if not I hope I've given you something to think about

Cheers
Gavin
 
The issue now is the holes in the panel, the meters would have to fit in there.
 
My next question based on the wiring there, is why dont I hook up a switch to select between HLT and MLT for the control source of the HTL Element?

If I am recircing wort through a copper coil in the HLT but im trying to keep the temp on my MLT I would have to raise the temp to a few degrees above to count for the loss in the tubing. If I set the MLT Temp to the desired temp and have the HLT element heat up until the wort is coming out of the MLT at the right temp wouldn't that make more sense? It should just mean switching the input of SSR#1 from the first PID to the second PID....
 
Only other thing I want to throw into the discussion by way of caution is that you need to completely understand WHAT you are doing, and WHY you are doing it. In my experience theres plenty of people with no formal qualification who I would say are much more capable of building a control panel like these than some of the A grade sparkys Ive worked with in the past!

In my view (and this is only my opinion) I really dont like the way Kal on the Elec Brewery site has drawn up his wiring diagrams. Noth that any of his diagrams are wrong, just for my mind and the way it works and the way Ive always done things (Im an electronics/comms engineer-turned project manager), I want to see a complete circuit diagram. In the case of my build (which is progressing VERY slowly), I followed a similar path to Gava, in that I used Kal's as a base, read them, re-read them until I understood them, changed them to suit, then drew my own complete diagram from scratch. I then checked and reviewed it myself over and over until I was sure, and then got someone else who I trust to peer review it - its AMAZING how many times a fresh set of eyes will find a rookie mistake that someone absoluetly qualified and competant has made when they become almost too involved and engrosed in a project. As an aside, this is how the companies Ive worked for all operated, ego-free peer review of every design and document before it's signed off on.

While there were no mistakes as such with my circuit diagram when I had it checked, there were plenty of "why are you doing this", "why is that switching that" kind of questions, and you need to know your circuit well enough to be able to answer those sort of questions.

What I actualy found surprising, is that my panel has been condensed and simplified to a degree from Kal's design; yet there are still 53 separate wiring hookups!! And I thought it was a fairly simple control circuit!

I would never try to discourage anyone from doing anyone themselves (pot-kettle-VERY black here!), but I always want to understand why Im doing something before I do it, not learn why while Im doing it.

If I can use an example of this SJP770...


sjp770 said:
The most annoying part is the correct way to mount the Relays is upside down to this pic. At least that going on the text printed on the plastic cover
Im not sure you fully understand how the relay is working; asuming you're using the same relay as the pic you are simply switching 2 x NO contacts (not change over contacts with Commons). It doesnt matter which way up you mount or wire the relay; so long as you wire the coil correctly, and dont wire ACCROSS the 2 separate NO contacts, the IN & OUT of the contacts doesnt matter.......

Just take your time and dont rush! :)

(Geez, now Ive just re-read my post I feel old & grumpy too!! maybe the missus is onto something!!!!)
 
Yeah, that was the part where I was following blindly and not understanding.

Mind you I was following other safety precautions, it was on its own 10A breaker, I was metering everything instead of touch testing to make sure there were no volts.

Upside down or not, left or right to the relay should have to bearing, but what goes coil side and what goes contactor side was the bit that I was not comfortable with, especially having to look at it upside down to see where he was connecting it up.

Like I said, I didn't understand the auxiliary connectors on the relay which means I didn't understand the relay and I should have stopped.
 
Leave the meters in for the time being to fill up the holes. Get everything working, then think about revisting later.

Controller builds typically 'descend' to this kind of talk after a while, which is why I didn't want to be 'that bloke'. It's all been said before.

bazfletch3 said:
Only other thing I want to throw into the discussion by way of caution is that you need to completely understand WHAT you are doing, and WHY you are doing it. In my experience theres plenty of people with no formal qualification who I would say are much more capable of building a control panel like these than some of the A grade sparkys Ive worked with in the past!
Bazfletch I completely agree with the first part, but not with the second. It's not so much about capability as it is about culpability. It's illegal in this coutry to do your own 240VAC wiring yet here are many of us doing it. You stuff up something and it burns down your house - there goes your house. A licenced electrician makes the same mistake, and your insurance will cover it. Likewise you can do the wiring yourself but before it's in a state where it can be plugged in get an electrician to do the final eye over and terminations. That way anything potentially life threatening will be addressed, and you can be confident if poo hits the fan you've done everything in your power by the book.
I don't want to get into the argument about good and bad sparkies as there are bad eggs in every trade. Saying there are bad sparkies out there isn't a good argument against not having one give your control box the tick. The insurers won't be very sypathetic with you (nor your widow) there.
 
Great posts Gava and bazfletch ... as sjp770 mentions, so far I have also been 'following along', not necessarily blindly, but I certainly don't have a full understanding of how every component works, or why.

Time to sit back and do even yet more reading perhaps ...
 
Crouch said:
Great posts Gava and bazfletch ... as sjp770 mentions, so far I have also been 'following along', not necessarily blindly, but I certainly don't have a full understanding of how every component works, or why.

Time to sit back and do even yet more reading perhaps ...
It took me awhile to understand a few things but once I did it seem to snowball and my panel was built pretty quickly afterwards and with confidence it won't kill me..
I got as much as I could from Kals drawings then put them aside (referenced them) but drew my own up for my panel since I had a couple of modifications.. i don't know electrical drawings so mines just done with parts in visio (yeah very technical here) but I understood it..

Gav
 
That definitely sounds like the go. Leave the panel meters until later and start drawing up a wiring diagram to have a sparky error check it then install it. I will be getting it passed before I move away from the 10A breaker and onto the 25A one. I'm also getting a sub board installed so there is more protection for the house etc.Wont help me but it will help.
 
Crouch said:
Great posts Gava and bazfletch ... as sjp770 mentions, so far I have also been 'following along', not necessarily blindly, but I certainly don't have a full understanding of how every component works, or why.

Time to sit back and do even yet more reading perhaps ...
It might just be my sick mind, but I actualy enjoy the learning part, as much as the building part, as much as the brewing stuff - not quite as much as the drinking part!

Dare I say its half the reason its taking me so long to do anything; I keep getting stuck out on a tangent spending time reading up on stuff thats interesting, but only mildy relevant!

Its easy for me to say as I know my mind "works" in circuits and lines and stuff (as my wife describes it while looking at me blankly), but none of the components or wiring that makes up these panels is very complicacted - especially when you look at it individualy. My adivce (and tell me to stick it!) is to do yourself a favour and get your head around understanding the circuit and the componets 100% - apart from anaything else it will make fault finding down the track much much easier - and one way or another you will have faults at some stage!


TheWiggman said:
Bazfletch I completely agree with the first part, but not with the second. It's not so much about capability as it is about culpability. It's illegal in this coutry to do your own 240VAC wiring yet here are many of us doing it. You stuff up something and it burns down your house - there goes your house. A licenced electrician makes the same mistake, and your insurance will cover it. Likewise you can do the wiring yourself but before it's in a state where it can be plugged in get an electrician to do the final eye over and terminations. That way anything potentially life threatening will be addressed, and you can be confident if poo hits the fan you've done everything in your power by the book.
I don't want to get into the argument about good and bad sparkies as there are bad eggs in every trade. Saying there are bad sparkies out there isn't a good argument against not having one give your control box the tick. The insurers won't be very sypathetic with you (nor your widow) there.
You'll get no disagreement from me in terms of your logic Wiggman!

Invaribly every forum about a panel build brings up this dicusssion - so I wont go there.

My take is knowledge = safety = no nasty insurance converstaions in the first place!

Having said that (and I know it contradicts my argument) Ive always said theres a reasonable argument to only be able to buy electrical consumables, and plumbing, and whatever, from designated suppliers, where you have to show your "ticket" first.... would create quite a nice black market though!

:) Baz
 
sjp770 said:
My next question based on the wiring there, is why dont I hook up a switch to select between HLT and MLT for the control source of the HTL Element?

If I am recircing wort through a copper coil in the HLT but im trying to keep the temp on my MLT I would have to raise the temp to a few degrees above to count for the loss in the tubing. If I set the MLT Temp to the desired temp and have the HLT element heat up until the wort is coming out of the MLT at the right temp wouldn't that make more sense? It should just mean switching the input of SSR#1 from the first PID to the second PID....
I've been playing around with various (paper) options on how to do this too.

You can have a switch that will change the the PID controlling the HLT element. It's location in the circuit will be between the PIDs and the control (5V) side of the existing HLT SSR. Congratulations, your mash PID can now do more than just display the temps (as it does in Kals build).

Unfortunately, your HLT holds a huge amount of thermal mass. 50' of coil in the HLT it means the temp of the wort coming out of the coil will pretty much match the HLT temp. You need to make sure you are measuring mash temps coming *out* of the coil, otherwise you either risk overshooting your target temps and cooking your enzymes (stuffing the mash), or the PID will slow the heating duty cycle to compensate the slow system response times, resulting in a much slower ramp than if you just controlled the temp of the HLT alone.

If you want quicker ramp times *and* want to control the mash temp directly, then your best option is a 4v system to include a small (2-3L) herms pot. This does mean another element (and coil), and you are going to have to re-design the control systems to ensure that only 1 of the 3 elements are going at any one time (or ensure the system can handle the herms and HLT elements at the same time (ie - 20 - 45A total draw, depending on your element choices).

Sit back, have a think and put a plan on paper.


Disclaimer: I haven't finished my build. None of the advice or explanations above are based from experience, just a whole lot of reading and a hopefully solid understanding of the physics involved.
 
Yeah, that was one worry. BUT, why do I need to monitor the wort coming out of the MLT at all? Why dont I add an auto sparge arm and monitor that temp as the wort goes back into the top? I have a manual thermometer in the fron of the MLT so I can double check the strike water temp, but even so I could recirc that as well.
 
sjp770 said:
Yeah, that was one worry. BUT, why do I need to monitor the wort coming out of the MLT at all? Why dont I add an auto sparge arm and monitor that temp as the wort goes back into the top? I have a manual thermometer in the fron of the MLT so I can double check the strike water temp, but even so I could recirc that as well.
You don't. You want to measure the "hot" side - ie coming out of the coil, or, as you mentioned, going back into the top of the mash tun (same thing - only separated by ~0.5m of hopefully insulated silicone hose).
 

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