Poll: PH testing

[Hopsta]

At a quick glance and then at a northern Melbourne report that i use, i'd suggest your pH might be a problem.
It seems your pH is high & your total hardness is a fair bit higher than mine. So, as well as reducing mash efficiency, it'll extract tannins from your mash. Namely from your sparge step - the mash will probably be fine on the tannin front, but the sparge water has no sugars/solids to buffer (i.e.: prevent) the tannins from being extracted at higher pH's. Those tannins could be causing some weird bitterness & astringency.
No idea about those chloramine thingies - def something to avoid in your beer, so if MHB reckons you're high, i'd use the Metabisulfate.

However:
This doesn't explain the loss of hops aroma.
It also doesn't seem to explain what's happened in the last 5 beers compared to the previous few dozen - in theory, the water should be consistent.
So it all probably depends on what you've altered in the last 5-6 beers. Or if your water supplier has altered their supply (as mentioned above).
In the meantime, i'd fix your pH, especially of your sparge water.
So i'd add some Acidulated Malt onto your shopping list
2c

For the poll, i've checked my pH a few times and compared to the Bru'n Water spreadsheet estimate. Always within 0.03. Don't bother checking any more.
:icon_cheers:

EDIT: PS, i add ~0.3g Citric acid into my sparge (as well as salts) to ensure my ~18L is sufficiently acidic so i don't get tannin extraction. Going solely by empirical evidence, seems to work for me - done on the assumption 0.3g citric acid is too small in 25L beer to be noticeable if it's unnecessary, but is enough to temporarily drop the sparge pH to ~5.3(-ish).

Thanks Technobabble, the last good brew i did was a porter which due to the darker malts is less susceptible to pH issues so ive read.

One of the great things about the BM is that sparging is an optional step (sometimes costs a couple efficiency points, sometimes not) i can exclude the sparge altogether on the next batch. Cheers.

 

[kaiserben]

I don't test. I use EZ-water to predict pH for me, and adjust from there. I'm also in Sydney.

In the past, before I utilised EZS water and water additions, I made a run of half a dozen ESBs that had similar issues to what you describe. Whereas my dark beers turned out great. And my IPAs also turned out great (but any problems there were probably being masked by loads and loads of hops). I can't say definitively that it was a water/pH issue, but it's certainly a possibility.

These days, for lighter-coloured beers I always add a small amount of acidified malt to help get the pH within range without having to go overboard with the salts. Haven't made a dud beer since using EZ water to check chemistry.

 

[Hopsta]

Absolute waste of time and money as pointed out in this thread at HBT http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

Whilst this is very long topic thread the first couplf of pages are a very good staring point for understanding the basics of water management

wobbly

Also get your self a copy of Martin Bruingards water spread sheet. Do a search for "Bru'n Water". There are two versions one free and the other requiring a contribution around US$10 which is in my view well worth it

Wobbly

That was a very helpful and interesting article. I've been through the first few pages and flagged the rest to go back and reference. I just downloaded the free bruin water version while i wait for him to email me the full version. It wasn't clear on his page how donation he required for the full version.. will wait and see if it comes through. Cheers.

 

[Hopsta]

I don't test. I use EZ-water to predict pH for me, and adjust from there. I'm also in Sydney.

In the past, before I utilised EZS water and water additions, I made a run of half a dozen ESBs that had similar issues to what you describe. Whereas my dark beers turned out great. And my IPAs also turned out great (but any problems there were probably being masked by loads and loads of hops). I can't say definitively that it was a water/pH issue, but it's certainly a possibility.

These days, for lighter-coloured beers I always add a small amount of acidified malt to help get the pH within range without having to go overboard with the salts. Haven't made a dud beer since using EZ water to check chemistry.

Thanks i'll give EZ water and Buin water a go see which one works best for me. The fact that the dark beers come out ok is what has convinced me on this.

Absolute waste of time and money as pointed out in this thread at HBT http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=198460

Whilst this is very long topic thread the first couplf of pages are a very good staring point for understanding the basics of water management

wobbly

Also get your self a copy of Martin Bruingards water spread sheet. Do a search for "Bru'n Water". There are two versions one free and the other requiring a contribution around US$10 which is in my view well worth it

Wobbly

That was a very helpful and interesting article. I've been through the first few pages and flagged the rest to go back and reference. I just downloaded the free bruin water version while i wait for him to email me the full version. It wasn't clear on his page how donation he required for the full version.. will wait and see if it comes through. Cheers.

 

[evoo4u]

If your rain water pH is below 5.0 then you are approaching "Acid Rain". Do you have a lot of heavy industry pollution close by?

I use rain water from the same type of tank and my pH is around 6.5.

My understanding is that measuring the pH of straight water does not yield much / any information of any use, as there's not sufficient buffering power in 100% water. It's only in the mash (with the grains) that a pH reading becomes useful.

So I have not dipped the meter into straight water. But as for water quality - we're in the bush, surrounded by more bush, and it tastes beautiful!

I am happy to be corrected if my thoughts on this are skewed.

 

[wobbly]

I just downloaded the free bruin water version while i wait for him to email me the full version. It wasn't clear on his page how donation he required for the full version.. will wait and see if it comes through. Cheers.

I don't remember it stating an "amount" rather a request for a "contribution" so I just put $10 as I considered it worth it if it was going to help me improve my beers with paying a bit of attention to mash and sparge water.

I also use a BM 20 and as indicated above have switched from 100% tap water to 90% rain water as I couldn't get a reliable analysis of the tap water. All I could get out of the water authority was an "range" of elements taken over a number of years sampling and depending on the time of year and it can vary from week to week the mount of desalinated water in the mix

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[wobbly]

My understanding is that measuring the pH of straight water does not yield much / any information of any use, as there's not sufficient buffering power in 100% water. It's only in the mash (with the grains) that a pH reading becomes useful.

My understanding also that the pH of your water isn't necessarily important but the pH of your mash and sparge is

My misunderstanding of your initial comment I thought you were indicating that your rain water out of the tank was below 5.0

Cheers

Wobbly

 

[Hopsta]

After punching my water analysis and most recent recipe into the EZ water calc (it is very easy) i can see problems already with some of the mineral components of my brewing water.

I really hope this is it and ive found the cause (with everybody here's help), quietly optimistic. Screenshot below.

 

[Nattydstar]

I've only done about 10 AG brews, but since I bought my PH meter I always check the mash PH. I've generally found I need to add a few drops of acid each time.

I picked up this one from Jaycar for $65 and just noticed you can get them for $52 each if you buy a minimum of six - maybe a bulk buy?

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I check. Rarely adjust. (AD11 pH meter celebrated each time) Its a result of just small variations between brews keeping as simple as possible or the complexities of multiple additions gets out of hand and you wont know whats working in your favour or not. So a base soft water profile for all my beers now. 2% Acidulated Malt for pales. No acidulated Malt for darker beers with maybe a tiny bit of Baking Soda for darks. Mash pH always 5.2. Water is filtered Melbourne tap water at around pH 5.8 to 6.

It could be good if you could get a second opinion of the flavour/off flavour of your beer. It may not be pH. You mentioned brewing outside. Is the beer kept in darkness?

 

[Hopsta]

I check. Rarely adjust. (AD11 pH meter celebrated each time) Its a result of just small variations between brews keeping as simple as possible or the complexities of multiple additions gets out of hand and you wont know whats working in your favour or not. So a base soft water profile for all my beers now. 2% Acidulated Malt for pales. No acidulated Malt for darker beers with maybe a tiny bit of Baking Soda for darks. Mash pH always 5.2. Water is filtered Melbourne tap water at around pH 5.8 to 6.

It could be good if you could get a second opinion of the flavour/off flavour of your beer. It may not be pH. You mentioned brewing outside. Is the beer kept in darkness?

Yeh brewday is outside, the fermentation and bottle conditioning is done in the dark. I think i may have a longy or two of the suspect batches i'll have to check, maybe take it up the local HBS for testing. Poor guy must get that a bit i'd say... "here taste my dodgee beer! What is it!?"

 

[manticle]

How is his pH high techno? Unless I misread.

 

[kaiserben]

Hopsta, I have same water as you.
I regularly use CaSO4, MgSO4 and CaCl, but only in very tiny amounts (a few grams per batch).
I usually just bump up the Ca so it's above 50ppm and the Mg up so it's above 10ppm.
I then check the Chloride to Sulfate ratio and consider whether I want to adjust that.
I try to keep Cl below 100ppm if I can (even though EZ water says up to 250ppm is fine).
Then I see where my mash pH is at.
And then add in some acidulated malt till it's were I want pH to be without sending the amount of acidulated malt past ~2% of the total grain bill.

I do this each time I try a new recipe. It's nice and easy.

 

[technobabble66]

Hey Hopsta,
You've got great water for a double stout or maybe a Dunkel [emoji185][emoji1]
That's a high Cl:S ratio!

Fwiw, I found EZ a great starting point, but quickly found it limited (no sparge estimate, or something like that?), so started using Bru'n and haven't looked back. Just take the time to fill it all out and it'll give you the best results.
Especially your mash pH, which as stated, is the all important.
If it's coming out high, there's a v good chance your sparge will be too high also.

Otherwise your water doesn't look too bad - relatively soft for mineral content, which is a plus!

 

[technobabble66]

How is his pH high techno? Unless I misread.

His pH=8, and total hardness is 55

I could easily be wrong, but it seems high to me and is definitely a fair bit higher than mine on both counts.
I'm assuming if I need to adjust my pH down with more neutral water, then he's going to be a shoe-in for his mash pH being too high on paler beers.
Happy to be corrected if I've missed something.

Hey, where's Martin Brungard?! This thread already hours old and he hasn't chimed in yet. [emoji6]

PS: +1 for what kaiserben wrote above. Similar process to what I do (plus a dash of Citric into the sparge), though my water source is obviously not the same.

 

[kaiserben]

Fwiw, I found EZ a great starting point, but quickly found it limited (no sparge estimate, or something like that?),

PS: +1 for what kaiserben wrote above. Similar process to what I do (plus a dash of Citric into the sparge), though my water source is obviously not the same.

Dunno if it has changed, but the current version of EZ Water allows you to select putting all your additions in the mash, or splitting between mash/sparge.

After doing some reading I've recently decided that it's best to put them all in the mash and then acidify your sparge water (and I've bought phosphoric acid for that).

 

[manticle]

I did misread (someone else's post as Hopsta's where pH was 6).

 

[welly2]

Quick question about Bru'n'Water. On the report I'm using, it shows "Calcium: 12.1 - 16.5" - do I want to just get an average of those two numbers and use that?

Edit. Well, that's I did with the values from here: https://www.sydneywater.com.au/web/groups/publicwebcontent/documents/document/zgrf/mdq0/~edisp/dd_044727.pdf

"Water Report is unbalanced". Not really sure what I'm missing here.



Ok, had to use the alkalinity conversion calculator to get estimated bicarbonate and carbonate concentration values.

 

[technobabble66]

Dunno if it has changed, but the current version of EZ Water allows you to select putting all your additions in the mash, or splitting between mash/sparge.

After doing some reading I've recently decided that it's best to put them all in the mash and then acidify your sparge water (and I've bought phosphoric acid for that).

Sorry - can't remember exactly why i changed to Bru'n water, i just remember that i was unable to estimate/include something i was concerned about on EZ, and that Bru'n covered everything i needed, up to now. I vaguely recall it may've even had something to do with slightly strange variances of estimated pH depending on what i tweaked(?).
meh, no idea really, too many beers ago. I just know that Bru'n covered whatever it was i needed to know, plus more.

 

[hopsock]

How long is mash and mashout?