point of no return.

[Pickaxe]

Curious if others have experienced this. Gone ag 6 months back, loving my beer. Made an extract filler recipe to bulk supplies of a brew I loved a year ago, can't drink it. Don't know if my palettes more discerning, I was making Shit and drinking it happily, my brewing is improved, or ag just really is the Shit! Or I fucked up an extract brew. Don't know what it is,but I can't go back to extract.

Anyone experience the same? Maybe I'm complacent with extract and not taking the care I used to or should.

Graininess in texture is the biggest fault, which makes it appear more bitter, and doesn't linger well. Is this a typical extract fault? I did have higher than usual ferment temps, but nothing over 22 at worst. Am I now an "ag snob"? Or does that sound like brewer error?

I just cant go back, it seems.

 

[timmi9191]

AG snob and proud of it.. I've knocked a quick kit and bits together occasionally to bolster stocks and whilst drinkable it's always lacking..

I'm now also finding anything sub 40ibu quite bland.. 50+ ibu IPAs are practically the house brew now..

 

[Lodan]

Could be a combo mate

the palate is searching for more complexity so the same old beer you used to love just doesn't cut it. i think this occurs first from hops, second from grain

Plus, the yeast character at 22 maybe different enough to the temp you normally brew at. Probably only a slight change, but it adds to the above



you're only an ag snob if you bad mouth the other styles. if you can remain appreciative of the pros and cons of each than you could be the perfect brewer!

 

[HBHB]

Could be the extract used or simply the change in tastes. Extract brew or Kit n Bits?

About 9 months ago, a new series of dry malt extracts appeared on the market it's cheap Asian Malt extract. We trialled a few bags in different grades and dumped most. One of the trial batches I did with an APA was nothing short of awful and the AIPA was even worse. "Grainy" as you described it would be a fair call on the stuff which is still kicking around in some circles.

Martin

 

[thedragon]

Sounds familiar.

I reently emptied my last keg and went back to a few bottles of kits and bits that id made about 18 months ago.

Bloody hell, it tastes terrible. I remember thinking at the time of brewing the k&k that it tasted great. But now I'm tipping it out.

No doubt my brewing has improved since the extract days with improved temp control and better equipment, but really the main difference is the ingredients.

I know that others make great beer with extract, but my experience is that when I brew AG I get significantly better beer than when I used extract.

No, I'm not anti extract. Some use it very well. And for me it was the step that I needed to get me from KK to AG.

 

[Pickaxe]

Yeah, a double batch partial I did alongside the extract brew in question, is a good beer, but has, and was criticised by a friend as also being brewing, but not to a huge extent, and not to the detriment of the whole batch. Now I think.about it, it is the graininess. Taints the flavors. It almost dried off the mouthfeel. Not pleasant. Btw, it was dry extract. Maybe that's the problem, used to use can goo in.the past. Never done a full dme brew. Could that be it?

 

[Pickaxe]

*criticised as grainy,not brewing. Sorry - phone typing.

 

[Bribie G]

Look, Nescafe Blend 43 won't poison you and many people are quite happy drinking it. International Roast is a bit cheaper and most IR drinkers buy the stuff because it's all they can afford. But they both rank as popular coffee type drinks.
Increasingly however people are installing pod machines that make the brew from actual coffee, whilst others go the whole hog and grind their own then load it into expresso machines with built in milk frothers etc.

You can probably trick up Blend 43 with some hazelnut essence and cream then froth it and serve with heaps of chocolate sprinkles and fool a few of the people part of the time. But if you are going to go to all that trouble to hide the twang that you inevitably get with instant coffee, then why not take the logical step and go up to genuine coffee. After the initial outlay on equipment and the extra time required to brew the stuff (during which the house gets filled with lovely aromas as a bonus) you'll find that the cost per cup - taking into account the electricity used and the standard cost of milk, cream or sugar - is fairly similar or even cheaper than using the instant.

 

[pist]

Definitely can relate to your experience pickaxe.
My beers have improved immensely...and i think its simply been the fact im making beer properly from real unprocessed ingredients. I havent done a kit or extract brew since i have switched to ag, and dont think i could bring myself to do it lol. My fermentation and sanitizing techniques have not changed so its definitely got to do with the ag process. My father in law and his mate are starch craft beer drinkers and have tried many. They hated my kit beers when i gave them those, but recently i gave them a bought porter and my own to try and they both ditched the bought one in favour of my own. Was pretty chuffed with that i didnt think it was "that good"

 

[Bribie G]

Agreed, I honestly think that we can actually brew more tasty and rich beers at home than Australian "craft" breweries. For example tonight I'm going up t'club for the Sunday Roast and Raffle session and will quaff a few White Rabbit Dark Ales. TBH I've had far better at club meetings and out of case swaps. It's smooth, sessionable and a bit of some Cascadia or maybe NZ hop going on there, but I can whack out something better (edit: more to MY taste) with one hand behind my back.

What I cannot do, or rather choose not to do, is to produce a similar style that will sell to thousands of drinkers that all have slightly differing palates and preferences so that the beer should tread a middle path and not be too pronounced in any of its characteristics. It should be brewed so that it travels well in bottles and kegs and each batch should be pretty identical to the last one or the fans will complain.

So, many commercials are in a bit of a strait jacket unless they choose the outrageous path like Brew Dog: I'd roll in the nettles at dawn for a free carton of Punk IPA.

Few and far between unfortunately but there are some pleasant drops out there, including a lot of the entry levels. I have had no difficulty brewing something within spittin distance of 150 Lashes and Murrays Whale Ale. The hardest, if not impossible, beers to brew at home are the likes of Melbourne Bitter or Cascade Premium, try as we might.

 

[BeerNess]

Yep I agree.. biggest thing for me is temperature controlled fermentations. I brewed for a mate, my recipe that he likes a lot, on my gear, he took home the no-chill cube and fermented at his place, with only a big tub of water to help keep temperatures stable. boy did I notice the taste difference yesterday! remarkable how 2-3 degrees difference, and stability of that temperature can really change a beer.

 

[Mardoo]

I'm guessing Pickaxe that the graininess you're talking about is different than the one that sealed AG brewing as what I would do. I like tasting the grain, the husk, the adjuncts, the specialty malts. I like the way it all works together. I feel like, totally subjective, the yeast has more to work with to develop flavors in AG.

And BribieG, yep, a good home brewer can do just as well as a commercial brewer in many cases, AFAIC. HB'ers aren't hampered by pasteurization or micro-filtration. I totally love Mornington's brown on tap, but on the bottle it's a completely different beer. That's my opinionhole for ya'.

 

[warra48]

Lots of craft brewery products are just fine, and are really quite drinkable and enjoyable, and frequently without much in the way of faults.
The thing is that among all of those I have consumed I rarely find one with as much malt character, mouthfeel, and hop complexity as what I feel I achieve in my better brews.
I think many of us do train our palates as HB afficionados to hanker for complex malt and hop characters in many of our beers.
However, I do agree with BribieG that some of the commercial offerings are almost impossible to emulate as a home brewed product. We just don't have the equipment the major brewers do, nor do we necessarily have their yeast strains. Don't forget their yeast strains may have developed over decades to give their beers their own special character, and they may not be available to us as home brewers.
For example, I have given up trying to brew Pilsners, never even having got close to something like Urquell or Budvar. What I've brewed has been drinkable, but would never be marketable as they were. So I now brew almost exclusively ales, and live with the idea that they are my favourites. If I want to drink a Pilsner, I'll hop down to Dans and buy some.
I don't describe to the Extract is never as good as AG theory. I frequently taste Partials with Extract brews from a fellow member, and they are consistently good beers, more often so than my AG brews.

 

[pist]

The craft breweries i find are the best, are those that have head brewers who have risen up from home brewing. They really know how to turn it on when coming up with " seasonals" or even one off full of flavour brews. Classic example of this, ive had some pretty damn good flavoursome brews at hunter beer co (potters) and im led to believe home brewing is where their head brewer keith started out (please correct me if im wrong?)

 

[Pickaxe]

Question bribie - am I going about extract wrong using dry only? Does goo produce better beer? I used to use Morgan's and was happy with results, just used cb dry extract and not as happy. What are your thoughts on dry or liquid?

 

[Bribie G]

Swings and roundabouts: dry malt doesn't seem to give the same "twang" as liquid, but as most dry in Australia is produced for confectionery and baking I've found that it has a few flaws, particulary chucking chill haze. I've always found the best way to use "extract" was to pimp Coopers or Morgans more bland kits, that have been produced in their own mash tuns and seem to be free of chill haze.

 

[lael]

I'd love to be able to brew with the consistency that commercial / craft brewers can. Still learning mashing steps etc though.

I did two versions of DT before getting going in all grain. Both too dark, both slightly syrupy/caramelised from boiling, but the first one was significantly better than the first and a very nice drop. I think you can definitely make good beer with extract.

That said... A friend recently commented that every single beer since AG has been excellent. So... Yeah, makes a difference to taste. And definitely enjoying the ability to create varied styles.

 

[Pickaxe]

I git a mate of mine to get into brewing with my ag beers too, lucky bastards first brew was ag, got him kitted up.and away. He borrows half my gear, but he's straight into making good beer wish I had that help when i started.

Thanks bribie, will take that on board. Now you mention it, my better breed were pimped kits and extract. I'll go that way next time i need a filler I think. See the results.

 

[wbosher]

The thing I enjoy mostly about AG brewing is the actual brewing part. Being out in the garage alone with a few beers, making a beer for a few hours, is just enjoyable...provided her indoors take the sprogs away for the day.

To be honest, I've made some bloody nice kits and bits beers that are almost comparable to my AG brew. Maybe that says something about my AG brews, I don't know :lol: I just can't really taste the kit twang. But the 30 minutes making a kit beer just isn't as satisfying as AG.

 

[boybrewer]

I started with kits . My first thought was yeah this has potential , it was certainly better than the mega swill that is out there. It then took about 6 mths to move to A.G. boy what a slippery slide it has been ,never looked back and enjoy a good brew day . Our brew club has an in house comp , whereby we are governed by a set of rules . These are a can of goo and whatever grains and hops you want , with a limit of 60 IBU and 1.060 SG and no toucan recipes . This was to prove that you can still make a decent beer from a kit . Having said that my K&B Stout actually won 2nd in the Vic comp .
Taught a collegue of mine to brew . His first batch was A.G and now when we do a collaborative brew he advises me of what he is looking for in a beer .
Now he has his mates brewing with kits and bits and by the sounds of it they are making a very drinkable beer . I can't comment myself as I have never tried any of them yet . :drinks: