Pid Newbie Stuff

[bignath]

And then write a how-to guild with a parts list for anyone else wanting to go this direction.

Yep, i completely intend on doing just that.

I will need to remember to take shots of the build as i go. Won't be for several weeks though. The enclosure is a christmas present from the wife so it's all wrapped up under the bloody tree...

All parts have now been acquired apart from the 240v output panel mounts which are on order from Jaycar, and the PID and probe which has been ordered....waiting on the postie!

 

[bignath]

Look what just arrived on my doorstep!

Happy days indeed.

And to top it all off, the wife has said i can start putting it together now, provided i don't mind waking up christmas day without a present from her (this PID venture is a chrissy gift from Mrs BigNath).

"No problem" i said...

The only thing i'm waiting on now, is the 240V outlet panel mounts for the enclosure.

Will start a new thread documenting the entire build with part numbers, approx costings, and photos/explanations.

Also i have re-jigged my wiring diagram to add more power outlets off of the second mains supply. They will never be used all the time (as explained in the picture) so this should keep everything below or at 10A load.

Can someone just give it the once over and confirm for the last time that what i am about to do will be ok?

Cheers,

Nath

Present from the postie.. Ramp/Soak PID, 8inch RTD weldless probe with SS deluxe braided cable and panel mount.


Wiring schematic...


Enclosure layout with single PID. Upgradeable for a second PID if i want dual controllers on my 3V (although this box is intended mainly for my 1V).


EDIT: The black rectangle in the layout diagram is the door lock.

 

[QldKev]

Parts looks good, I'd be wiring it before Chrissy :lol:

I don't like the wiring

The part that scares me... On the second circuit the idea of allowing a user to manual switch between using the heater OR pump/drill when they could leave both powered up = not good.
Either
1. Put in a Circuit-Breaker to suit the line feed (ie 10amp)
2. Put in a combined Combined-RCD-MCB
3. If the switches you are using are double throw, use the NO to run the element output and the NC to run the other outlets.

I thought maybe always plugging the second circuit via a powerboard to use it's max 10amp breaker, but once again one day you may not.

Also don't call it drill, call it mill. :huh: Later you may update to a motor. Also does this need to go via the control box?


Finally (on my making it look 100% like QldKev would build) I don't think the controls flow nicely on the layout.



QldKev

 

[glenwal]

Parts looks good, I'd be wiring it before Chrissy :lol:

I don't like the wiring

The part that scares me... On the second circuit the idea of allowing a user to manual switch between using the heater OR pump/drill when they could leave both powered up = not good.
Either
1. Put in a Circuit-Breaker to suit the line feed (ie 10amp)
2. Put in a combined Combined-RCD-MCB
3. If the switches you are using are double throw, use the NO to run the element output and the NC to run the other outlets.

I thought maybe always plugging the second circuit via a powerboard to use it's max 10amp breaker, but once again one day you may not.

I'd be doing (1 or 2) and 3. 3 will provide "every day use" idiot/f-up protection, and 1 or 2 is always a good practice when supplying multiple outlets.

 

[porky]

The standard wire used in homes is 2.5mm squared. It can handle up to like 30 amps. I am surprised that you only have 10 amp breakers. My house has 20 amp for the power points and 10 for the lighting circuits. Have a sparky check this for you, put in a 16 or 20 and you will be able to run all at once if need be.

 

[glenwal]

The standard wire used in homes is 2.5mm squared. It can handle up to like 30 amps. I am surprised that you only have 10 amp breakers. My house has 20 amp for the power points and 10 for the lighting circuits. Have a sparky check this for you, put in a 16 or 20 and you will be able to run all at once if need be.

Except the GPO is only rated at 10 amp. The reason the breaker (and wiring) is rated higher is because you generally have more than 1 gpo on a circuit.

Drawing more than 10A from a 10A GPO will not blow a breaker, but is also not a good idea.

 

[QldKev]

The standard wire used in homes is 2.5mm squared. It can handle up to like 30 amps. I am surprised that you only have 10 amp breakers. My house has 20 amp for the power points and 10 for the lighting circuits. Have a sparky check this for you, put in a 16 or 20 and you will be able to run all at once if need be.

Except the GPO is only rated at 10 amp. The reason the breaker (and wiring) is rated higher is because you generally have more than 1 gpo on a circuit.

Drawing more than 10A from a 10A GPO will not blow a breaker, but is also not a good idea.

I've also assumed Big Nath will be running from standard 10amp GPOs; hence the idea to limit the max draw to 10amp. But if Big Nath has access to a 15amp or 20amp outlet we can make life easier. I think to change to a 15 or 20amp GPO you can only have the one outlet on the line, but I'm not 100% sure.

:icon_offtopic: (but still close)
Does anyone know with a double GPO, is it ok to draw 10amp from each outlet at the same time. So in the case of Big Nath's control box plugging the 2 circuits into 1 double GPO.

QldKev

 

[glenwal]

I've also assumed Big Nath will be running from standard 10amp GPOs; hence the idea to limit the max draw to 10amp. But if Big Nath has access to a 15amp or 20amp outlet we can make life easier. I think to change to a 15 or 20amp GPO you can only have the one outlet on the line, but I'm not 100% sure.

:icon_offtopic: (but still close)
Does anyone know with a double GPO, is it ok to draw 10amp from each outlet at the same time. So in the case of Big Nath's control box plugging the 2 circuits into 1 double GPO.

QldKev

If they use an internal distribution bar (ie, you feed in 1 set of wires and it powers both outlets) then they are rated at 10A total. If you feed a seperate set of wires into each outlet then it is 10A per outlet (since in this case they aren't really a "double" outlet, but actually 2 outlets in 1 plate)

 

[bignath]

Hi guys, cheers for the input.

Kev, im a bit confused mate.

What i've tried to do with the diagram, is basically just add another "ganged" outlet to the second circuit so there's 4 in total (kind of acting like a four outlet power board).

Im not sure what's different. What i want to do with the second circuit, is have the element (red switch) off during the mash obviously, as this will be taken care of by the PID. I want to be able to have power to the pump, power to operate mill, and power to laptop all be independently.

The second circuit element, wont ever be on at the same time that the pump and mill outlets are on, as the second element is for the boil only so pump and mill will have been finished using by that stage.

I'm wondering if the description i used in the diagram about how it will work has confused a bit, or i've maybe confused myself.

Not sure why the diagram when it was 3 outlets on the second circuit was fine, but adding one extra is requiring all the mods...
In your diagram with the switch utilising the NC contacts, i wouldn't be able to use the laptop and the second element would i??
can you explain it to me?

Cheers mate,

Nath

oh, by the way, this whole enclosure will be run off two separate power circuits in the house. 1 will be an outdoor power point to the water softener, and the second will be by unplugging my flouro light in the patio as it's on a separate circuit.

If i could run this all off of a double powerpoint i would, but at the moment it doesn't appear to be an option, so i'll just be going with as described for now. It's how i currently power up my elements.

 

[QldKev]

What we are concerned about it that you have "ganged" 4 outlets into 1 supply with no overload protection. In the case of a 4 outlet powerboard it has a 10amp circuit breaker built in, that little black button on the side. In your case your building the 4 outlet power board, but you have not added any form of overload protection to it.

The extra 4th outlet is not the problem, even back with just 2 outletshere I mentioned "Have you considered circuit breakers, just if your splitting 1 x 10amp supply into 2 x 10amp outlets, it may be easy to forget and plug elements into the both of the outlets."

I understand you have no intention of running the second element and the drill at the same time. One day you may decide to do a brew and throw that second element in the pot to bring it up to strike temps quicker. Not thinking about it, next thing you've fired up the mill and milling away with a load total load 2400w element + 800w drill + laptop (maybe even the pump to help with a nice even water temp) , all running through cables and switches designed for 10amp, with no overload protection. I would hate for a fire to break out and you loose loved ones over it. If you had the 10amp circuit breaker in place, in theory it should trip and save you.

Think of each 10amp outlet being a potential of a 10amp load. Never leave it up to the user to always make the best decision.

With the NC circuit you would not have power for the laptop. I planned it that way as your element would be the full 10amp load. As Glen W mentioned, really you should have option 1 or 2 and also possibly add option 3 as well.

I am not an electrician and your electrician will be able to advise best on this subject.

QldKev

 

[bignath]

What we are concerned about it that you have "ganged" 4 outlets into 1 supply with no overload protection. In the case of a 4 outlet powerboard it has a 10amp circuit breaker built in, that little black button on the side. In your case your building the 4 outlet power board, but you have not added any form of overload protection to it.

The extra 4th outlet is not the problem, even back with just 2 outletshere I mentioned "Have you considered circuit breakers, just if your splitting 1 x 10amp supply into 2 x 10amp outlets, it may be easy to forget and plug elements into the both of the outlets."

I understand you have no intention of running the second element and the drill at the same time. One day you may decide to do a brew and throw that second element in the pot to bring it up to strike temps quicker. Not thinking about it, next thing you've fired up the mill and milling away with a load total load 2400w element + 800w drill + laptop (maybe even the pump to help with a nice even water temp) , all running through cables and switches designed for 10amp, with no overload protection. I would hate for a fire to break out and you loose loved ones over it. If you had the 10amp circuit breaker in place, in theory it should trip and save you.

Think of each 10amp outlet being a potential of a 10amp load. Never leave it up to the user to always make the best decision.

With the NC circuit you would not have power for the laptop. I planned it that way as your element would be the full 10amp load. As Glen W mentioned, really you should have option 1 or 2 and also possibly add option 3 as well.

I am not an electrician and your electrician will be able to advise best on this subject.

QldKev

Ahh, gotcha. I understand now.

So how would I go about adding a circuit breaker in my box? Where would it go in relation to the diagram?

Or, would it be better/easier/smarter to run a mains in for every planned outlet? Ie: could I run PID from one power point, and then the other four off of a four board (which would then have circuit breaker)? Feed each appliance in the enclosure from each outlet of the four board?

 

[porky]

Except the GPO is only rated at 10 amp. The reason the breaker (and wiring) is rated higher is because you generally have more than 1 gpo on a circuit.

Drawing more than 10A from a 10A GPO will not blow a breaker, but is also not a good idea.

This is true, so he could add another GPO if the breakers are in fact big enough. But it seems he has it covered anyway.

 

[ian ulrick]

Need confirmation that I will have the right order for my setup.

HLT

1 X 1/16 DIN PID Temperature Controller (SSR control output) & Liquid tight RTD sensor, 8 in, 1/2 NPT Thread

HERMIT

1 X PID Temperature Controller w/ Ramp/soak, Kiln (SSR Output) & Liquid tight RTD sensor, 8 in, 1/2 NPT Thread

Now I am looking at having a timer to turn the HLT on to heat up before I start and to use with an alarm for hop additions.

Will this be what I am looking for.

http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_pag...products_id=290

Thanks in advance and if you can see another option please let me know.

Baldrick.

Edit: Sorry if I have hijacked your thread for a sec BigNath

 

[QldKev]

Ahh, gotcha. I understand now.

So how would I go about adding a circuit breaker in my box? Where would it go in relation to the diagram?

Or, would it be better/easier/smarter to run a mains in for every planned outlet? Ie: could I run PID from one power point, and then the other four off of a four board (which would then have circuit breaker)? Feed each appliance in the enclosure from each outlet of the four board?

To add the single pole Circuit Beaker from "option 1"

Note: I also added one to your other pid circuit.


I think running separate mains circuits in and out of the enclosure for each item would be a hassle, it would work though. I could understand if you was going to run a full 10amp GPO to each.

I'm also not sure why you want the mill and laptop via the control box? I think it would be easier to leave them out of it. Plug the 2nd control box circuit into a power board. Then from that same external power board add in the drill and laptop. Just an idea.



QldKev

 

[bignath]

Thanks Kev. So this would in theory "work" too?



I see how you've added the breaker to the mains inputs in my diagram. Makes sense, and looks like being heaps easier than using a four board like the above photo.

I have been thinking about future proofing the enclosure, so i was trying to add all the outlets that i'd ever need in one hit and use them as described, and then if needed due to upgrading to a second pid, or second pump, or other small appliances, i'd already have them installed, and then i'd just run the laptop on batteries and change switch labels to suit the future upgrade.
A second pump could go to the laptop out, or the mill out etc...Or i could run a small clip on light as i'm taking one of the feeds from my outside flouro for example.

So circuit breakers are literally just a positive in and positive out are they? Do they need to be earthed?
Do you just install them on a "rail" somewhere inside the box?

Was looking at them the other day in the hardware store, but didnt pay attention to how they wire up...

Cheers again mate for all your help.

Nath

 

[Jez]

Big Nath, once you have the PID wired up and running the link below will help as a shortcut to programming it:

http://theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=11

Skip the wiring part and scroll to the programming part down the bottom. It sets out which values you need to change and which you can leave alone. I found it a big help.

Jez

 

[glenwal]

So circuit breakers are literally just a positive in and positive out are they? Do they need to be earthed?
Do you just install them on a "rail" somewhere inside the box?

No need for earth, but you will want access to the switch/button on them so if they trip you can reset them.

Something like this is easy to mount in a panel

edit: fixed link

 

[bignath]

Big Nath, once you have the PID wired up and running the link below will help as a shortcut to programming it:

http://theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-part-2?page=11

Skip the wiring part and scroll to the programming part down the bottom. It sets out which values you need to change and which you can leave alone. I found it a big help.

Jez

Thanks Jez, i'll check it out. That was gonna be the next few questions i was gonna put up here....as in "how the hell do you program these little bastards"?

No need for earth, but you will want access to the switch/button on them so if they trip you can reset them.

Something like this is easy to mount in a panel

edit: fixed link

Cheers Glen.

So an item like that would completely take the place of a more traditional circuit breaker like you'd find in a home circuit board? Looks easy enough to me!

 

[QldKev]

No need for earth, but you will want access to the switch/button on them so if they trip you can reset them.

Something like this is easy to mount in a panel

edit: fixed link

I like that one, heaps better idea

QldKev

 

[Lakey]

To make it alot easier for yourself get an electrician to install a 20a or even a 32a protected circuit to your brewimg area then you will have the capacity to split that circuit up in the box to all the circuits you want using breakers. Main power comes in then bus bar to the breakers for each circuit all on din rail, pid can go on the din rail too.