New Oxygenation Method

[MHB]

Have you looked at the formation of Chlorine?
There is plenty of NaCl and CaCl2 in the wort. Not knocking or nit picking just a question I think worth knowing the answer to as I personally take steps to get rid of Cl.
I would have to take a refresher course in electrochemistry to know if the salts are going to disassociate at the voltages you are using.
Mark

 

[Mardoo]

I too am now holding off on that, very interested in this development.

Yep, me too.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Have you looked at the formation of Chlorine?

I was very concerned about the production of chlorine from residual chloride, I am hypersensitive to halophenols.

Basically chlorine formation is related to excess drive voltage ("overvoltage" is the term used in analysis of electrolysis). Using a controlled current source at a very low current density (~ 15mA / cm^2) on a platinum surface eliminates this as a problem.

 

[MHB]

Fair cop, I'm not surprised you looked at the possibility and its good to know.
Mark

 

[technobabble66]

I think the relevant detail is in the first post.

From my reading of the available research, the actual mechanism is due to surface activity on the platinum electrode and indeed this involves some peroxide radical formation but these radicals appear to stay bound to the surface. In the presence of sulphate some ozone should form but this appears to break down immediately in a pitched wort.

There is a very important relationship between maximal current and anode surface area which is key to reducing side reactions. The device incorporates a controlled current source to achieve this.

I was very concerned about the production of chlorine from residual chloride, I am hypersensitive to halophenols.

Basically chlorine formation is related to excess drive voltage ("overvoltage" is the term used in analysis of electrolysis). Using a controlled current source at a very low current density (~ 15mA / cm^2) on a platinum surface eliminates this as a problem.

So obviously you flagged the importance of minimising the excess drive voltage as critical to minimise undesired electrochemistry and by-products from the get-go .

I assume this issue (the possibility of the electrolysis interacting with the wort grain-derived compounds and forming all sorts of by-products) is not seen as a problem in the wine industry? (it sounds like it's already being used there(?)).

Additionally, isn't "some peroxide radical formation" an issue, even if those radicals are bound to the electrode? I'm not trying to be picky with this, but it was seen as the condemning issue with using H2O2 - that the peroxide radicals would be producing all sorts of undesirable by-products. While being bound should help minimise this, i'm also assuming they'll remain active radicals until they react with something, and most of the stuff to react with will be the wort compounds.

I've obviously not read/researched any of the background electrochemistry & the devil is really in the detail with this stuff. I'm just seeking a little clarification and explanation on this stuff, partly out of curiosity and partly out of wanting to ensure one of the potential issues can be ticked off.

I'm definitely not trying to shoot down this fantastic idea, and are very keen to see it work (i'm also holding off from O2 options to see how this pans out first).
Cheers

 

[2cranky]

I can see the time to do this might be an issue, but I can see this is just the beginning. Ultimately this might become part of the fermenter, so you could potentially reach pitching temps, pitch seal it up, turn it on and forget it. It would build O2 and turn off at the required time.
But to do this it would need to fit different fermenters and be a price that you wouldn't shy away from having one for each fermenter in a typical brew day (2 for me).
marketing - you would sell it to the guys that make these fancy stainless fermenters like SS Brew bucket. Having this as a bolt on to the basic model has cred, also selling a model that converts your basic 30L would work well (include a bung or other method for converting).
my 2c

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

So obviously you flagged the importance of minimising the excess drive voltage as critical to minimise undesired electrochemistry and by-products from the get-go .

I assume this issue (the possibility of the electrolysis interacting with the wort grain-derived compounds and forming all sorts of by-products) is not seen as a problem in the wine industry? (it sounds like it's already being used there(?)).

Additionally, isn't "some peroxide radical formation" an issue, even if those radicals are bound to the electrode? I'm not trying to be picky with this, but it was seen as the condemning issue with using H2O2 - that the peroxide radicals would be producing all sorts of undesirable by-products. While being bound should help minimise this, i'm also assuming they'll remain active radicals until they react with something, and most of the stuff to react with will be the wort compounds.

I've obviously not read/researched any of the background electrochemistry & the devil is really in the detail with this stuff. I'm just seeking a little clarification and explanation on this stuff, partly out of curiosity and partly out of wanting to ensure one of the potential issues can be ticked off.

I'm definitely not trying to shoot down this fantastic idea, and are very keen to see it work (i'm also holding off from O2 options to see how this pans out first).
Cheers

As far as I am aware the peroxide moeities* remain bound to the electronically active anode surface until they react to form the oxygen. The hydronium ions and the peroxide moeities are negatively charged so they bind to the anode surface (which, by definition, is positively charged). The oxygen is not charged so it is free to diffuse away.

As I understand it, the surface of the platinum oxidises to form a monoatomic layer of PtO. The action of the anode is then bind a hydronium ion to a bound oxygen, forming a bound peroxide. Apparently the surface binding effect is so strong that the motion of these bound peroxides is exclusively two dimensional, they "skate" on the surface of the anode, allowing them to react and form an oxygen molecule which breaks free and the process starts again.

If you remember, the action of peroxide in ADr0's excellent experiments became evident due to a slow ferment start. The beer I was oxygenating in post #30 three days ago is now almost at FG, having been pitched with one pack of Nottingham in about 30 litres of wort at 13 oP and held at 17 oC. I don't count that as a sluggish start.

I am more than happy for people to post their concerns. Hopefully I have done enough background research to allay them. If not, I'm shot.


* I was wrong when I called this a peroxide radical previously, it is charged and therefore not a radical.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Palladium coated? Can it be bicycle powered?

https://m.ebay.com.au/itm/New-Medic...Platinized-Electrode-/332049558602?nav=SEARCH

 

[manticle]

I'm interested.

I've been wanting to purchase a brewman O2 setup for a while and will likely still head down that road but if this becomes available for a good price, I'd get one, compare, then sell the less efficient/suitable for me version.

Really interesting possible alternative.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Palladium coated? Can it be bicycle powered?

https://m.ebay.com.au/itm/New-Medic...Platinized-Electrode-/332049558602?nav=SEARCH

From memory palladium is added to Ti alloys as a beta phase stabiliser to improve mechanical properties. (I started out many years ago as a trainee Aeronautical Engineer in the defence forces).

Note the comment that "regular maintenance, cleaning, and replacement of pieces are needed for high performance applications". In other words, the anode is sacrificial (intended to erode through the service life).

Yes it can be bicycle powered but a simple 12V SLA is probably easier if you want to go "off grid": you could always recharge the battery by bicycle power.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

But it's on the internet. It must be true?

 

[malt junkie]

Flow rate x time is a very simple equation, not a stab in the dark

Even fiddling around - 2 mins vs a minimum of 60? No contest for me

And yes, after 35 batches I am buying another O2 cylinder, for $50 or approx $1.20 per batch... for 1 minute oxygenation...

Once you've flicked the switch to turn on the power/timer what are you thinking your attendance is required for. Your argument makes no sense 0.3 of a second vs 2mins and 12hrs later another 2 mins. Mate you stand there holdin your stick, I'll be upstairs gettin a blowy!

 

[manticle]

You have an issue with blowflies where you are?

 

[malt junkie]

Too cold for any flies here Mants.

 

[stewy]

Once you've flicked the switch to turn on the power/timer what are you thinking your attendance is required for. Your argument makes no sense 0.3 of a second vs 2mins and 12hrs later another 2 mins. Mate you stand there holdin your stick, I'll be upstairs gettin a blowy!

Takes 1 min to o2 my wort. (You’ve blown your load well within that time, obviously)

No need to re do in 12 hours time unless I’m brewing a barley wine.

Don’t stress, you guys will have the last laugh when this thing is flying off the shelf & I look like a fool for not having purchased one

 

[mtb]

I will O2 my wort & pitch the yeast. Then I will get several blowies, drink several beers & you will have to head back to the brew shed, after blowing your load within 30seconds (you still have at least another hour to kill while this thing is in your wort) & then pitch your yeast.

If you can bring a product to market that is no cheaper & takes at LEAST 60 times longer to do the task required, & get the masses to buy it - you’d be a genius!

2Cranky is the only bloke on here who has suggested a potentially viable value prop.

You must be fun at parties stewy

 

[stewy]

You must be fun at parties stewy

Excellent point.

You’ve convinced me to purchase one.

 

[mtb]

Excellent point.

You’ve convinced me to purchase one.

Without even trying! I'm fairly talented like that

 

[malt junkie]

Takes 1 min to o2 my wort. (You’ve blown your load well within that time, obviously)

No need to re do in 12 hours time unless I’m brewing a barley wine.

Don’t stress, you guys will have the last laugh when this thing is flying off the shelf & I look like a fool for not having purchased one

Why am I waiting to pitch yeast? Seriously what is your scientific reasoning? Your really hung up on this hour thing. How long does your yeast take to eat your 12ppm? Are you there watching it do so? I won't be, chuck yeast in, chuck Moxy Wand in, turn it on, return to fermenter.... well when ever I get to the shed.

Value 1c per brew versus 120...... ummmm, maybe you skipped math at school?

 

[stewy]

Why am I waiting to pitch yeast? Seriously what is your scientific reasoning? Your really hung up on this hour thing. How long does your yeast take to eat your 12ppm? Are you there watching it do so? I won't be, chuck yeast in, chuck Moxy Wand in, turn it on, return to fermenter.... well when ever I get to the shed.

Value 1c per brew versus 120...... ummmm, maybe you skipped math at

*You’re

If you find value in this method, buy in!

Ps. Ad-hom isn’t an argument (re: “maybe you skipped math)

And, it’s maths. We’re not yanks
[emoji481]