Help getting that crisp Lager taste

[mrre]

Hi All,

I have been brewing on the Grainfather for 12 months now and produced some pretty reasonable beers.

One of my favourite styles are Lagers, I have brewed several but none of them have had that real "crisp" taste and mouth feel that commercially produced lagers have. I believe my brewing methods are sound. I hit my numbers on my brews and I have a tempreature controlled fermentation chamber to take care of fermentation temps.

The only thing I haven't done to this point is water mineral adjustments so I am kind of pin pointing this as one possible source of my issues. I do use campden tablets and have used PH 5.2 stabiliser before in my water. I run my water through a dual stage water filter (Bunnings type)

My question is if I want to start adjusting minerals based on the water report from my area am I better off by passing the water filter so my water is as close as possible to the report as I am guessing the water filter will be changing the mineral profile of the tap water fairly dramatically?

Would I be better off getting an RO water system and building my mineral profile up from scratch?

Any other ideas on how I can get that crisp taste would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Let's Brew Beer]

Wouldn't mind finding that out myself, I've just put down a 17L batch lager. Noticed some of my brews lack that 'crisp' taste. I have a local water report but haven't bothered to add any ions except a campden tablet. I do add at least 3% acid malt with almost every brew i do now, would be interesting to know if thats supposed to make any difference.

 

[brewgasm]

Hi All,

I have been brewing on the Grainfather for 12 months now and produced some pretty reasonable beers.

One of my favourite styles are Lagers, I have brewed several but none of them have had that real "crisp" taste and mouth feel that commercially produced lagers have. I believe my brewing methods are sound. I hit my numbers on my brews and I have a tempreature controlled fermentation chamber to take care of fermentation temps.

The only thing I haven't done to this point is water mineral adjustments so I am kind of pin pointing this as one possible source of my issues. I do use campden tablets and have used PH 5.2 stabiliser before in my water. I run my water through a dual stage water filter (Bunnings type)

My question is if I want to start adjusting minerals based on the water report from my area am I better off by passing the water filter so my water is as close as possible to the report as I am guessing the water filter will be changing the mineral profile of the tap water fairly dramatically?

Would I be better off getting an RO water system and building my mineral profile up from scratch?

Any other ideas on how I can get that crisp taste would be greatly appreciated.

Have you tried dry enzymes?

 

[MHB]

Unless your water is high in Carbonate, it isn't really going to matter, just make you have enough Calcium available (50-100ppm is regarded as a minimum - I add about 100ppm to my local waters 35ish ppm). Much more important to get your pH right and ideally a bit lower than for ale say 5.1-5.3pH
You need to be using a good Pilsner Malt, I would choose a German malt, for me Weyermann Premium Pilsner.
Absolutely do step mash, you want to spend some time (say 30miinutes) at low (63-65oC) Beta Amylase promoting temperatures, then up to Alpha Amylase peak (69-74oC), then mash out around 80oC. If you cant step, give it an hour around 63-4oC.
Better to mash in thinner (more water) thing 4-5:1 or even all your water in at the start (no sparge) don't over sparge.
Avoid overdoing gravity, bitterness and especially late hops. For learning Lager making I would start with what the Germans call Standard Beer 12oP (1.048) and 24IBU. Ideally start with one addition of a good German hop like Hallertau Mittlefruh, Hersbrucker, Tettnang… or Czech Saaz. Look up Budweiser (the Czech one), one malt one hop, one addition, the worlds best SMASH
Pitch Cold, Pitch Lots. Yeast management really is the key to making good Lager/Pilsner. If you pitch a truly huge amount of yeast at 8-10oC let it rise to 12oC and if necessary ramp up to around 20oC at the end to speed up Diacetyl (and other VDK's) removal as well as finishing off any sugars.

I know we all poke a bit of fun at mega brewers, but this is what they are doing day after day, its technically very demanding and leaves nowhere to hide mistakes.
Practice makes perfect as they say, but really yeast management is king.
Mark

 

[zoigl]

Mark, I enjoyed reading this, do you have any tips to share for pale ales?

 

[hoppy2B]

Add some gypsum to reach your desired ph. That should help sharpen the flavour a bit.

 

[MHB]

Mark, I enjoyed reading this, do you have any tips to share for pale ales?

Thanks, What I posted above is where I would head from ordinary PA brewing practice to get a crisp clean lager style.
Going to depend on exactly what you mean by Pale Ale to. Coopers Pale Ale is an excellent example of a basic PA, it isn't too far from the 12/24 numbers mentioned for a basic lager. As the hops increase (either/both bitterness and taste) you need more body/maltenes to balance the beer, that's where it starts to get more complicated, you need to start looking at ingredients and processes that increase the fullness of the beer, think Munich, melanoidin imperial aromatic malt... warmer mashed to encourage more dextrins... Yeast like US-05 that wont eat all the sugar, compared to S-04 that will eat most everything giving a dryer (crisper) beer.
Really just good basic brewing practice, and the right amount of healthy yeast.

Add some gypsum to reach your desired ph. That should help sharpen the flavour a bit.

Even in distilled water (what the pH for a malt is reported from) you cant add enough Calcium Sulphate to get the pH down - well under 5.6pH is pretty much the limit. You need to be able to measure pH and you will need to be adding acid or as above acidulated malt (Acidulated lowers the pH by 0.1pH/1% of grist so to get from 5.6 to 5.2 you need to be adding 4%).
Sulphate is widely said to make the beer hoper, in truth it makes the hops more pronounced and harsher.
Go too far with the sulphate and your beer will start to acquire all the subtilty and grace of a 2" ******* file being run across your tongue!
Mark

 

[hoppy2B]

I added 2 tablespoons of gypsum to a 45 litre batch and fermented with 1469, and it is not harsh in the least bit. I boiled the gypsum before mashing. The sulphur in it dissolves leaving behind the calcium, which in this case consisted of lots of tiny shells. You probably get a little calcium dissolving but not much. The mash also had 250 grams of acidulated malt in it.

I would describe it as very crisp, and not harsh at all. It was bottled on the 17-11-2016. I actually stuck one in the fridge about an hour ago. I am going to try and culture the yeast from it. It is only 3.7% abv in the bottle or slightly less, so I am hoping the low ph has preserved the yeast's viability.

 

[Rocker1986]

Didn't think there was any sulphur in gypsum... but anyway;

Most of the lagers I brew are Czech pilsners, and I do a lot of what Mark mentioned in the post above. It results in beautifully balanced and reasonably crisp beers. One difference in mine is the water is very low in all minerals; I use all distilled water and then add back small amounts with various mineral salts. All the amounts are way lower than recommended but it doesn't seem to affect anything adversely. This is the only beer style I do use such soft water though; I've tried the recipe with water with more minerals in it and it wasn't as nice to be honest.
Malts are Weyermann Boh Pilsner (always), and a bit of Melanoidin and acidulated as well. The mash is done at 63C for about 35-40 minutes, raised to 72C for 30 minutes before mashing out at 78C. 90+ minute boil. Saaz at FWH, 80 minutes, 15 minutes and flameout (surprisingly it works well) to about 43-45 IBUs in high 1.040s OG wort. At the moment I don't have much option to get the wort down to ferment temp prior to pitching yeast but I try to get it as cool as I can. Yeast is grown in a starter to approx. the required amount or a bit more than that. Ferment starts at 10C and is raised to 18C after 6-7 days. Left up there for a week then crashed to 0C for 1.5-2 weeks. Improves more with further cold storage.

As for sulphates causing harsh hoppiness, I think that might be the issue with my pale ales lately. I'll be reducing the addition next batch to see if it helps smooth things out more.

 

[MHB]

The original Pilsner (Urquell) is brewed with very soft water and is a lot hopier and bitter than it tastes, what we call perceived bitterness. People forget that a nice round full bodied Stout might be 40-60IBU's but just glides down...
If you have RoMo water you will need more hops than with a more minerally water.
Sounds like you have your Lager nailed! If the Pale Ales are a bit rough, then yes I would wind back the Sulphate, possibly trade some for CaCl2, to keep the Ca content up but the Cl has a mellowing affect on the taste.
I have ben playing around with Calcium Lactate for a couple of years, add as much Sulphate and/or Chloride and top up the Calcium with the lactate - works well for me.
More than one way to get to where you want to go. Glad its working for you.
Mark

 

[hoppy2B]

Didn't think there was any sulphur in gypsum... but anyway;

If you look on a packet of gypsum which you will find at Bunnings for about, I think it's $11 or $12 per 15 kg, you will see the number 18 next to some other numbers. In this case it is 0-0-0-18. The first 3 numbers stand for NPK. The fourth number normally stands for sulphur but can also stand for other things. The 18 in this instance is Sulphur.

The product is from Richgro. It is a natural mined gypsum. Don't use chemical gypsum as it contains heavy metals. Getting it at Bunnings in a huge bag is much cheaper than buying it at a home brew store.

It is commonly stated that adding gypsum to soil will not alter its ph, but knowledgeable persons are also aware that the sulphur dissolves long before the calcium.

 

[yankinoz]

It is commonly stated that adding gypsum to soil will not alter its ph, but knowledgeable persons are also aware that the sulphur dissolves long before the calcium.[/QUOTE]

Knowledgeable people?

Gypsum is mostly calcium sulphate, CaSO4, where the S stands for sulphur, but combined with oxygen. It is sparingly soluble and in solution there is partial dissolution into calcium ions and sulphate ions. Never is elemental sulphur present.

In the amounts used in brewing you're unlikely to get much lead or arsenic direct from the mine and grinder, but I use food grade stuff from a brew supply shop and would advise the same.

 

[MHB]

Knowledgeable people?
I think your right to question the assertion. hoppy2B, you should learn some basic facts before posting, unless that is you are really trying to prove you're a complete idiot!

If you look on a packet of gypsum which you will find at Bunnings for about, I think it's $11 or $12 per 15 kg, you will see the number 18 next to some other numbers. In this case it is 0-0-0-18. The first 3 numbers stand for NPK. The fourth number normally stands for sulphur but can also stand for other things. The 18 in this instance is Sulphur.​

Although this isn't generally a gardening forum, this bit is actually right. Irrelevant but right. About as relevant as saying that Carbon and Nitrogen are toxic because they go together to make Cyanide (CN), in brewing its the Sulphate Ion that's important.

The product is from Richgro. It is a natural mined gypsum. Don't use chemical gypsum as it contains heavy metals. Getting it at Bunnings in a huge bag is much cheaper than buying it at a home brew store.​

Actually 100% arse about, the natural unrefined product may contain heavy metals, we refine it and test it to make sure its safe before we can call it Food Grade or safe to eat.

It is commonly stated that adding gypsum to soil will not alter its ph, but knowledgeable persons are also aware that the sulphur dissolves long before the calcium.​

Again irrelevant, not talking about gardening, but to dissolve the Calcium Sulphate disassociates into Calcium Ions and Sulphate Ions (Ca,2+ and SO4,2-) you cant extract the Sulphur (well not under brewing conditions) you cant get one ion without getting the other, so not only can you not extract the Sulphur before the Calcium you cant extract the Sulphate.

Dude put it back in the rack for a while.
Mark

 

[GalBrew]

Wow this thread took an interesting turn. I for one would NOT be putting any ingredient in my beer that I bought from Bunnings. Also two tablespoons in 45L is a veritable shit ton of gypsum, especially in a 3.7% beer.

 

[Dazza88]

Didn't think there was any sulphur in gypsum... but anyway;

Most of the lagers I brew are Czech pilsners, and I do a lot of what Mark mentioned in the post above. It results in beautifully balanced and reasonably crisp beers. One difference in mine is the water is very low in all minerals; I use all distilled water and then add back small amounts with various mineral salts. All the amounts are way lower than recommended but it doesn't seem to affect anything adversely. This is the only beer style I do use such soft water though; I've tried the recipe with water with more minerals in it and it wasn't as nice to be honest.
Malts are Weyermann Boh Pilsner (always), and a bit of Melanoidin and acidulated as well. The mash is done at 63C for about 35-40 minutes, raised to 72C for 30 minutes before mashing out at 78C. 90+ minute boil. Saaz at FWH, 80 minutes, 15 minutes and flameout (surprisingly it works well) to about 43-45 IBUs in high 1.040s OG wort. At the moment I don't have much option to get the wort down to ferment temp prior to pitching yeast but I try to get it as cool as I can. Yeast is grown in a starter to approx. the required amount or a bit more than that. Ferment starts at 10C and is raised to 18C after 6-7 days. Left up there for a week then crashed to 0C for 1.5-2 weeks. Improves more with further cold storage.

As for sulphates causing harsh hoppiness, I think that might be the issue with my pale ales lately. I'll be reducing the addition next batch to see if it helps smooth things out more.

Hey what percentage of melanoidin and acidulated do you add? Next beer is a boh pils. last time only added 7% Melanoidin.

 

[Rocker1986]

Thanks Mark, the soft water came about from researching Urquell's brewing methods and stuff when I was formulating my own recipe. I didn't want a clone of that beer, but certainly something in the same ballpark and I have achieved that on numerous batches since. A bit of tweaking here and there has improved it too. The hop addition timings came from them as well although I tweaked them a bit to suit my system better. I'll definitely try less sulphate additions in the pale ales though, my normal water is higher in chloride so even just enough to balance the two should be better than favouring the sulphate. I have all 6 of the usual brewing salts on hand so I'll come up with something that works. The experimenting is fun and useful for learning even if sometimes the beers aren't as nice as they could be.

Hey what percentage of melanoidin and acidulated do you add? Next beer is a boh pils. last time only added 7% Melanoidin.

Hey Dazza, I use 3.5% melanoidin and 2.3% acidulated. The rest is made up of Boh Pils malt and a pinch of black malt to darken the beer to a more golden colour. They always turn out really nice.

 

[mrre]

Thanks for all the replies guys. Has given me an idea of where to head next.

Cheers!

 

[david pridham]

Hi All,

I have been brewing on the Grainfather for 12 months now and produced some pretty reasonable beers.

One of my favourite styles are Lagers, I have brewed several but none of them have had that real "crisp" taste and mouth feel that commercially produced lagers have. I believe my brewing methods are sound. I hit my numbers on my brews and I have a tempreature controlled fermentation chamber to take care of fermentation temps.

The only thing I haven't done to this point is water mineral adjustments so I am kind of pin pointing this as one possible source of my issues. I do use campden tablets and have used PH 5.2 stabiliser before in my water. I run my water through a dual stage water filter (Bunnings type)

My question is if I want to start adjusting minerals based on the water report from my area am I better off by passing the water filter so my water is as close as possible to the report as I am guessing the water filter will be changing the mineral profile of the tap water fairly dramatically?

Would I be better off getting an RO water system and building my mineral profile up from scratch?

Any other ideas on how I can get that crisp taste would be greatly appreciated.

Hi All,

I have been brewing on the Grainfather for 12 months now and produced some pretty reasonable beers.

One of my favourite styles are Lagers, I have brewed several but none of them have had that real "crisp" taste and mouth feel that commercially produced lagers have. I believe my brewing methods are sound. I hit my numbers on my brews and I have a tempreature controlled fermentation chamber to take care of fermentation temps.

The only thing I haven't done to this point is water mineral adjustments so I am kind of pin pointing this as one possible source of my issues. I do use campden tablets and have used PH 5.2 stabiliser before in my water. I run my water through a dual stage water filter (Bunnings type)

My question is if I want to start adjusting minerals based on the water report from my area am I better off by passing the water filter so my water is as close as possible to the report as I am guessing the water filter will be changing the mineral profile of the tap water fairly dramatically?

Would I be better off getting an RO water system and building my mineral profile up from scratch?

Any other ideas on how I can get that crisp taste would be greatly appreciated.

Hi MRRE,
may I suggest NOT using the 5.2 Stabilizer, I have also used and I believe it may stay in your beer till the end and effectively try to buffer the PH of your beer upwards thus losing the normal acid bite.
Cheers
Dave

 

[Redreuben]

Hint.
What does the word lager mean ?

 

[Droopy Brew]

I reckon if you are looking for a "crisper" beer like the commercials then there are a couple of ways that will have a bigger impact than ******* about with water. Not saying it doesnt play its part, I always adjust water, but going down the path of getting an RO and creating a perfect water profile still probably wont get you what I suspect you are chasing.
What you are probably finding is that your lagers have good body and malt presence as opposed to many commercial lagers that tend to be watery with SFA malt back bone aka 'crisp'. A few very easy ways to get this are:
1) Substitute 10% of your grain for dextrose. This will thin the beer and make if more fermentable and reduce some of the malt sweetness.
2) Mash very low- about 63C. This will thin the body but you will still have malt sweetness.
3) add an enzyme which will make some of the unfermentable sugars (ie body creating sugars) available to the yeasties to eat.
4) do all of the above for a truely bland, crisp beer.