Help getting that crisp Lager taste

Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum

Help Support Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
Some tips before you start doing dextrose additions:
- get your pH right
- consider your yeast selection, lagers strains are usually more attenuative, but not all
- the hops count, don’t go all macro on the IBU
- don’t scrimp on the malt, get the best pilsner malt available to you
- really get the clarity you want, even low counts of yeast or other protein will act to blunt the crispness

You can get that crisp taste with all malt, and even high finishing gravity lagers. German & Czech breweries have been doing this for a while now.

The obvious examples I can think of are Krombacher and pilsner urquell.
 
Yup, my pilsner is based on Urquell, it may not be as crisp as macro swill but it's still a crisp beer. Especially after fining it and allowing the keg to lager for a month and a half in addition to the time it gets in the fermenter before kegging. Beautifully clear, flavorful and crisp. It is an all malt recipe as well.
 
Hi mrre,


I like your question :)

I can maybe lend some assistance. This is currently exactly my area.

As a german trained (Ausbildung) brewer who has been working full-time a bavarian brewery for years and currently studying the Braumeister in Munich, I have some handy inside info on this style of beer. It's the bread and butter of bavarian breweries, and they (literally) wrote the book on brewing it.


Mark, as always, has offered some very important points.

I agree 100% with Mark that your water composition, although fairly important, is secondary to a few other vital factors.


Like he said, pitch-rate is fairly important (although not masssssively important if your malt, mash and other fermentation conditions are all good).

Fermentation temperature is the absolute most important factor when brewing bavarian lagers.


To repeat Mark's advice, fermenting at 8-10°C is a very good start. You could even ferment a bit cooler.

Then, as redreuben so beautifully put it: lager lager lager lager lager!!!!!!

If fermentation temp is the most important thing, lagering is definitely the 2nd most important. Especially getting it off the old yeast (racking). Lager it for at least 4 weeks. If you can, longer

The diacetyl "rest" up to 20°C is an option. But if your fermentation is right, it shouldn't really be necessary. If I were going to do it, I'd do it by turning off your cooling when you're about 75% of the way through your fermentation. I've heard this tactic mentioned from a few brewers, as it does have logic. However, as far as I know, it's not really common procedure in breweries here.


Now on to the mash.

Also critical of course. I'd need to see your malt analysis to really be able to optimise the mash program, but Mark's schedule is a very good starting point.

The typical bavarian mash schedule is sub 60 mash-in, 62-63, 70-73, 78-mashout decoction.

Depending on what the barley harvest was like last year ->> how the malt is this year (protein content!!!!!!!), one could consider a protein rest around between 50-60deg. As a rough description: 50-55deg will increase your Free Aminoacid content (yeast nutrient!!!!!) and 55-60 will increase your content of med.-high molecular *soluble* Protein (mM and hM-Protein) -->> head retention.

However, in general, malts are so well modified these days that that is *probably* not necessary. Like I said, if you have a malt analysis there, I could take a look and tell you what should be done.


One can always just mash in at around 52 than start heating straight away up to 62deg at 1deg/minute. It's also a bit kinder on the enzymes than hitting them with 62deg when they've been chilling out at say 15 degrees for weeks/months.


Regarding water:

pH (in the mash and at the end of the boil) is fairly important, but not near as vital as the above points. (In germany it's illegal to add raw minerals or lactic acid during the brewing process. There are numerous ways around this, but they're often too expensive or time consuming for a lot of smaller breweries.....and they still brew "crisp" bavarian lager).

With a pH of 5.5-5.6 you're right on target for the beta- and alpha-amylasen.


Regarding malt-bill:

If you really want to get it “crisp” I’d completely do away with specialty malts. We used to add a little bit of carahell, but only like 3%.


Another thing to be careful of in terms of keeping your end product “crisp”, is DMS . (Cabbage, cooked vegetable smell/flavour). This is exacerbated when the wort is between 80-100 (i.e. Whirlpool)

On top of all these things, one can definitely do some good fine tuning with water chemistry, but as already mentioned here, all the other brewing steps have to be right.


Good luck and keep us posted on your progress with the next batches! :)
 
Oh and just quickly regarding Pilsner Urquell. it's actually got a pretty high diacetyl content (typical of Bohemian Pilsners). So if you're after that kind of taste, you could happily bump up the above^^ fermentation temps a few degrees.
Or shorten the lager times
 
I'm a huge fan of CarraHell in these types of beers (not necessary if you want to decoct them like Urquell), <5% not so much for Colour as for Hue. CarraHell gives a glorious Golden hue, no matter how good a beer tastes I personally think they should never look like a urine sample, CarraHell moves the beer from Yellow > Gold, perhaps the biggest mistake a brew designer can make!
Mark
 
Hey @keine_ahnung, thanks a lot for that info, it's greatly appreciated. Do you mind elaborating a little bit on your preferred lagering approach please? Specifically, but please feel free to chip in with any other info:
  • What sort of time frame would you typically be holding the beer at that 8-10 degrees?
  • Do you recommend racking off the yeast before or after chilling to lager temperature?
  • What is your preferred lager temperature, and how long do you take to chill to that temperature from ferment temperature (ie crash chill or gradual)?
There's obviously many answers to these questions out there but it would be great to hear your views as a trained German brewer, please, if you're happy to share.

Also, do you feel that a decoction step mash (as opposed to a step mash achieved by direct-heat recirculation like a Braumeister single vessel system) is an essential component of getting that German lager character? Or is it just the temperature rests themselves that count?
 
What enzyme is Droopy Brew advocating?
Maybe he can post his recipe for a crisp but tasty lager.
Better still an Urquel clone, particularly if it is doable without months of low temp fermentation>
 
Mine's not an Urquell clone although is based on it, I can post it when I'm on the computer again if you'd like. However I don't think there are any shortcuts to get around a reasonable lagering period. All of mine have been much better beers after at least 6 weeks lagering in the keg after having a short time lagering in the fermenter.

I have changed my process recently as well. Previously I would just drop the temp to 0 and let it sit there for a couple of weeks until kegging. Now I do a slow ramp down to 3 degrees over a few days and leave it there for another 10-11 days. I've found this to result in a cleaner lager than the old method.
 
I’d disagree on Urquell being a crisp lager, it’s a Pilsner and much fuller bodied with hops to balance, to me lager is much more um, delicate.
As for enzymes what do you want to make Hahn extra dry ?
**** that.
Pilsner malt, some Cara and if you want to dry it off a bit use some flaked barley.
 
I’d disagree on Urquell being a crisp lager, it’s a Pilsner and much fuller bodied with hops to balance, to me lager is much more um, delicate.
Pilsners are lagers but I would agree they aren't crisp like some other lager styles are. Still crisper than most ales to my palate though.
 
Hey @Meddo,

Do you mind elaborating a little bit on your preferred lagering approach please? Specifically, but please feel free to chip in with any other info:
  • What sort of time frame would you typically be holding the beer at that 8-10 degrees?
  • Do you recommend racking off the yeast before or after chilling to lager temperature?
  • What is your preferred lager temperature, and how long do you take to chill to that temperature from ferment temperature (ie crash chill or gradual)?

1 - Hold this fermentation temperature until fermentation is complete.
2 - once your fementation is finished, cool it down, get it off the yeast, transition to lagering. Getting the beer off the majority of the yeast as soon as fermentation is complete is very important. (Otherwise Autolysis of the yeast = unpleasant harsh bitterness, decreased head retention, increased pH, reduced colloidal stability of the beer)
3 - 0-3°C. More importantly, keep the temperature as stable as possible.

To reiterate: lagertime = as long as you can. Absolute critical minimum 2 weeks. Better: 4-8 weeks. Seriously, that is such a critical factor with a good lager. It is the entire meaning of the word in German. "Lager" = to store. If you're not letting your lager lager, it's not a lager.
The only reason breweries here don't lager their Pils und Helles-Beers for 12 weeks is due to capacity. If they could, they happily would. The end beer is so rounded and balanced that you could cry. The difference between a lager beer with 2 weeks of lagering vs 6 weeks is night and day.

The only down side on a hobby scale, is oxidation levels.
without knowing what your equipment is, it's hard to advise. But assuming you don't have the facilities to CO2 wash your racking-keg before racking, one option would be to cool your beer down to say 4-5°C when the fermentation is 90% through then rack it it.
This should give you reasonable compomise between dropping enough of the old yeast out before racking, and still being warm enough to ferment out a bit in the racking keg and expell the remaning air in thetop part of the racking keg. Just an idea :)
 
Pilsners are lagers but I would agree they aren't crisp like some other lager styles are. Still crisper than most ales to my palate though.
Well said Rocker.
By definition, "Pilsners" are all lagers. However within Pilsners (aka "Pils") there are several substyles. A bohemian pils (e.g. Pilsner Urquell, stemming from the city Pilsn in Czech - 1.5 hours from the brewery I've been at the last few years) is different to a bavarian pils, which is different to a north german pils.

Bohemian pils are characterised by relatively high diacetyl levels. Typically significantly higher than that of bavarian and german pils. I personally find it hard to call Urquell "crisp". In terms of it's malt body and hopping, it's quite smooth, fine and delicate, however the diacetyl and other ferm. byproducts give it a rather full, unripe mouth feel and flavour COMPARED to lots of bavarian pils.
^that how my palate perceives them anyhow. But after years of drinking very fine bavarian lagers every day at work, one becomes a bit biased! :D
 
Oh, I keep forgetting to mention one extremely important factor.
All these professionally produced lager beers that we're comparing to are filtered. That has a MASSIVE effect on the flavour.
Exaclty the same with all these beers I've been talking about from our brewery. When they're well lagered, I love them after the filtration. However, regardless of lager time, I'm not a fan of Pils and Helles unfiltered. Festbier, Dunkles, Kellerbier, Bock....that's a different story.
But that's also a taste thing. Some brewers like Pils and Hells unfiltered too. But in general, there's a reason why they're usually filtered...
So don't ever be discouraged if you can't completely replicate such beers on a homebrew level! :)
 
Hey @keine_ahnung
Also, do you feel that a decoction step mash (as opposed to a step mash achieved by direct-heat recirculation like a Braumeister single vessel system) is an essential component of getting that German lager character? Or is it just the temperature rests themselves that count?

Hmm...this is a very good question. I ran a trial in the brewery about a year ago where we brewed the exact same Helles, but infusion istead of our standard decoction program. When we first filled it, I thought I liked it. HOwever after taking a case home after work, and trying to drink a full beer, I noticed it was half as nice as our usual. If that. it's hard to put ALL of that down to the infusion process, as there were other factors as well. Being a trial, we only fermented 20hl in our trial tank. It was also a 1-tank fermentation-lager program, which is atypical for us. It was lagered for something like 14 weeks, which gave it a really soft touch, however it lacked that slightly bready dry but balanced and pleasantly delicate malt body that our beer usually has.

If you have the time, I would definitely try it. See if you notice a difference :)
One of the main benefits is that you physically break down the starch moleclules, which aids in decreasing your FG. (<Edit! OG was a typo before!)
To be honest, I'd say the biggest gains to be made with decoction are maltier darker beers like Festbier, Dunkles, Märzen, Maibock etc. The darker malts in these beers require a bit more man-handling in the mash due to the higher protein content of the barley that is required in the malting process to makes these malts
 
Last edited:
This information is really interesting stuff. I don't do it exactly the same at home because I don't really have the means to but I'm still happy with the outcomes at the moment. Decoctions would be a really big pain in the arse to try on my current BIAB brewing system. I use melanoidin malt as part of the grain bill but I know it's not gonna be quite the same as doing a real decoction. I do use a sort of step mash, starting at 63, then heating to 72 before mashing out at 78.

One similarity other than the low fermentation temp (I usually ferment at 10C) is that I do at least try to lager them for a longer period of time as they are better for it. I've done some unintentional but useful experimenting in the past drinking them too soon; it was interesting to note how the beer improved over time stored cold. I'll be improving my set up next year so I will at least be able to lager every batch for a suitable length of time.
 
This information is really interesting stuff. I don't do it exactly the same at home because I don't really have the means to but I'm still happy with the outcomes at the moment. Decoctions would be a really big pain in the arse to try on my current BIAB brewing system. I use melanoidin malt as part of the grain bill but I know it's not gonna be quite the same as doing a real decoction. I do use a sort of step mash, starting at 63, then heating to 72 before mashing out at 78.

One similarity other than the low fermentation temp (I usually ferment at 10C) is that I do at least try to lager them for a longer period of time as they are better for it. I've done some unintentional but useful experimenting in the past drinking them too soon; it was interesting to note how the beer improved over time stored cold. I'll be improving my set up next year so I will at least be able to lager every batch for a suitable length of time.

Oh yeah, decoction + BIAB could be tricky :)
(Although, maybe you could reach into the bag from above during the mash, take a few scoops out and boil a portion of mash in a pot on the side....?)
But I must say, your trick with a bit of melanoidin malt is also not a bad idea! Will definitely give you some of the benefits of the Maillard-reaction which is one of the factors with decoction.
How much (%) do you use?
 
Oh yeah, decoction + BIAB could be tricky :)
(Although, maybe you could reach into the bag from above during the mash, take a few scoops out and boil a portion of mash in a pot on the side....?)
But I must say, your trick with a bit of melanoidin malt is also not a bad idea! Will definitely give you some of the benefits of the Maillard-reaction which is one of the factors with decoction.
How much (%) do you use?
Originally not really feasible but where I'll be setting up the brewing equipment in our new place I could, as I could move the BBQ next to the urn and use the side burner to boil the grain portions. May give it a go some time.

As for percentage of melanoidin, it's around the 3% mark I think (not at home to check the recipe at the moment).
 
What enzyme is Droopy Brew advocating?
Maybe he can post his recipe for a crisp but tasty lager.
Better still an Urquel clone, particularly if it is doable without months of low temp fermentation>

Hi Peter,
You can buy dry enzymes from HBS. I have only used them once back in my K&K days but it certainly did allow for more attenuative wort. Not sure specifically what enzyme- Maltase of some description I imagine.
I dont try to clone beers so cant help you on an Urquel. As others have said there really is no substitute for a decent lagering period if you want to do a lager properly.
The advice I gave before is if you are chasing a very bland "crisp' beer such as a Hahn superdry for example. Often people looking for 'crispness" are looking for dry and bland. I think a better word for a good lager is clean.
Anyway my favourite German Pils is :
97% Pilsner, 2% Melanoidin, 1% Acidulated malt to 1.050.

25IBu at FWH with Halletau and 5IBU with Hallertau or Perle or Saaz at 10 min.
Mash at 65C. Protein rest if you like.
Pitch minimum 1.5M/ml/P of S189 at 10C.
Let rise to 12C. Ferment 7 days, raise to 18C for 2 days. Drop 2C per day until it gets to 4C. Leave at 4C for 4 more days. Crash to 1C for a week. Keg and let it lager in the keg for 4 weeks.
 
No probs with decoction with Biab style I can only imagine it might even be easier.
Just lift the bag and scoop out your grist into your decoction pot and add wort till you get a nice thick decoction consistency and boil away.
 
Back
Top