Has Robobrew overtaken Grainfather for product price point?

[Feldon]

The idea that building your own system from parts adds nothing to a brewers learning experience and knowledge base is nonsense.

There are decisions to be made of how and where everything fits together. There are zillion possible ways to build a brewery - where does that thermowell go?; what size and power of element do I use?, and to come to conclusions you have to think and learn about the brewing process you are locking yourself into.

If you buy a ready-made system those decisions have already been made for you. Easy, pretty much push a few buttons and walk away. But if you are a novice brewer I agree with Tidal Pete and say that building a system (or two) yourself requires research and is a fine way to educate yourself on how brewing equipment affects the beer that will be produced. And if one day you do end up buying a commercially made system you'll be a better 'craft' (and that is the operative word in this discussion) brewer than some newbie who is starting out on the same gear.

 

[LAGERFRENZY]

That crap is based on the assumption that Grainfather or Robobrew users are rich kids who start out AG brewing by buying one. My journey started with traditional Big W pot on the stove top and progressed to a bigger pot with a Keg King Light Sabre element and an esky before purchasing a GF.

 

[Zorco]

Same

 

[bwhouse]

^ yup same ^

Still say there is little point in building a single vessel recirculation system, unless you actually want to spend the time and build one to learn the in's and out's of build a brewery (not brewing). A Robobrew or a Grainfather is just better value.

 

[welly2]

If you buy a ready-made system those decisions have already been made for you. Easy, pretty much push a few buttons and walk away. But if you are a novice brewer I agree with Tidal Pete and say that building a system (or two) yourself requires research and is a fine way to educate yourself on how brewing equipment affects the beer that will be produced. And if one day you do end up buying a commercially made system you'll be a better 'craft' (and that is the operative word in this discussion) brewer than some newbie who is starting out on the same gear.

If you think the Grainfather or the Robobrew is a case of pressing a few buttons and then walking away then you've clearly never used either one of them. They require the exact same process (more or less) as a standard 3v system. They're no more automated than a herms/rims system.

 

[Bridges]

Hahaha, I was actually going to ask if Craig Lowndes was a mechanic, but thought better of it.

Good move because he is and did build his own cars and engines before racing with HRT...

Any hoo, I built my own system 1 vessel and before that used to BIAB and I was never real happy with my own 1 vessel which I wanted for space saving reasons, my wife actually set me straight after another batch that I wasn't happy with by asking if I'd try to build my own vacuum or drill if I needed one. Point taken, I went and purchased a wort production device. I know the build and tinkering is fun and a big part of the learning process but these great options just weren't around not that long ago. I don't begrudge anyone getting into brewing now being able to buy a great system at a decent price. Good luck to them.

 

[Feldon]

If you think the Grainfather or the Robobrew is a case of pressing a few buttons and then walking away then you've clearly never used either one of them. They require the exact same process (more or less) as a standard 3v system. They're no more automated than a herms/rims system.

"exact same process" but at the same time "more or less" ???

Anyway, the technical specifics of the systems was not the thrust of my post. What I was getting at is the development of a brewer into a craftsman. If you like its the difference between a beer maker and a brewer.

We live at a cusp in time when until recently if you wanted to make all-grain beer at the domestic level you had to knock together some kit from components mostly designed for other purposes - cooking pots, eskies, etc. Then things like the Braumeister came along and more recently the Grainfather, Robbobrew etc. All reliant on computer chips.

Right now a lot of users of these new, ready-made systems have cut their teeth on their own self-made systems. And they bring to their use of these new systems all the craftmanship in brewing gained from all the trial and error (empiricism) they worked through since they began brewing.

On the other hand, there are many newbies who come to brewing today straight into a Grainfather etc. And this group has no real need to understand why their machine is made like it is, it just works. But unless some take the effort to learn from empirical experience, the homebrewing community is at risk over time of losing the craftmanship expertise if these new brewers just blindly follow recipes and instructions. Where will the guys who develop ideas born out of an apprentership with cobbled together kit, some even without instrumentation in the beginning. I made my first batches without a thermometer. The results varied but shit I learnt a lot. (I use thermometers now, but I can still get my mash pretty close to 65C degrees by sight and touch).

I only mention this to demonstrate what an element of craftmanship actually is, because the word is so much abused these days. It is a state of mind, a reliance on your five senses and your memory and on a sliding scale. Some things are more 'crafty' than others. But ultimately automation leads to the death of craftmanship. The more we rely on automation in that quest for 'repeatability' the less craftmanship we put into our beers. In the end we are beer-makers rather than craftbrewers. And thats OK, enjoy making your beers and drinking and sharing them. Just don't puff your chest out and tell people you're the latter when you are really the former.

One way to negate the inevitable slide towards mere beer-making is to encourage new brewers to have a go at making their own system, if they can. Not all, but some. We need to restock the gene pool.

 

[manticle]

Except systems like braumeister, gf etc inspire technical minded people to replicate those ideas in homemade systems so craft continues and evolves, over and over.

All systems just make wort anyway. Brewing is much more than wort production.

And if you're going to give a good hearted jab at exact/pretty much, take one from me for the use of three question marks. One serves the same purpose, three is profligate

 

[LAGERFRENZY]

The bloke I bought my Grainfather from sold his to fund his next 3v build. Many users do eventually get tired of the small batch size of these systems and go to 150 litre or larger builds. Owning a brewing system is not a fixed destination - merely one step in a journey.

I have had some excellent beers that were brewed by beer makers using no more than a Crown Urn and a bag. Such a shame that they can never call themselves brewers.

 

[mtb]

The bloke I bought my Grainfather from sold his to fund his next 3v build. Many users do eventually get tired of the small batch size of these systems and go to 150 litre or larger builds. Owning a brewing system is not a fixed destination - merely one step in a journey.

I have had some excellent beers that were brewed by beer makers using no more than a Crown Urn and a bag. Such a shame that they can never call themselves brewers.

+1

Mate of mine owns a GF and is jealous that I can put down a double batch. The common factors between he and I are fermentation; we both face similar issues there. Being a craft brewer IMO is crafting your own recipe and having it turn out great, not your own equipment. The equipment is merely a vehicle, the recipe & your skill is the fuel.

 

[Feldon]

The bloke I bought my Grainfather from sold his to fund his next 3v build. Many users do eventually get tired of the small batch size of these systems and go to 150 litre or larger builds. Owning a brewing system is not a fixed destination - merely one step in a journey.

I have had some excellent beers that were brewed by beer makers using no more than a Crown Urn and a bag. Such a shame that they can never call themselves brewers.

The beer that is produced has no bearing on the craftmanship that went into it. That should be clear from my last post.

The craftmanship is resident in the brewer, not the beer.

 

[mtb]

The beer that is produced has no bearing on the craftmanship that went into it

Gotta completely disagree there. Maybe this is a difference in the interpretation of the word "craftsmanship".
You define it as, and I quote, "It is a state of mind, a reliance on your five senses and your memory and on a sliding scale"
Google defines it as; "the quality of design and work shown in something made by hand; artistry."

By Google's definition, if a beer is good, it means the recipe was good (designed by a brewer). The work undertaken by the brewer (milling, stirring, handling, not infecting) means it was good.

 

[bwhouse]

Mental note to self, next time I am jumping on a flight, confirm with the pilot that they indeed built the plane are are not 'simply' flying it B)

Jokes aside, I totally agree with mtb, the craftsmanship is in the actually brewing and the end result. That's not to say that you don't learn a whole lot of other skills in building a brewery.

 

[manticle]

The beer that is produced has no bearing on the craftmanship that went into it. That should be clear from my last post.

The craftmanship is resident in the brewer, not the beer.

So if a guy whittles a stick into sawdust rather than the dove he intended or makes a chair that breaks the first time a child sits on it, he's still a craftsman 'cos he thinks he is?

 

[welly2]

"exact same process" but at the same time "more or less" ???

Yes, in as far as the subtle differences between brewing with a BIAB system vs a HERMS system vs a RIMS system. The process is the same, the mechanics slightly different.

I still have to mill my grain, mash in, sparge, boil, add my hops, do my whirlpool. And the Grainfather will do none of this for me. To say you just have to press a couple of buttons and walk away is simply uninformed.

Then things like the Braumeister came along and more recently the Grainfather, Robbobrew etc. All reliant on computer chips.

Sorry mate but that's a load of crap. My Grainfather does nothing more than hold the temperature to a consistent level. That's as automated as it goes. Everything else is a manual process.

 

[Coldspace]

The larger 64 ltr system would be good,

I get 2 x 21 ltr batches upto 1048 grav on each gf mash , but a bigger system might get me 3-4 19 to 21 ltr batches..

I watch with excitement .

 

[Feldon]

So if a guy whittles a stick into sawdust rather than the dove he intended or makes a chair that breaks the first time a child sits on it, he's still a craftsman 'cos he thinks he is?

No, that's silly (and you know it is).

You more than others should know what I mean by craftmanship, as I take it from previos posts you have spent many years in professional kitchens. There you would have seen craftmanship at work - they are called chefs. Do properly trained chefs measure out the quantities they need for a recipe? Not always, and for some dishes never. They know by sight, taste, smell, touch or sound how much to add - how much vinegar to add to the mayonaise, how much salt to season the broth etc. They are craftsmen. They have learned their craft from their master as an apprentice, and testing themselves time and time again until they got it right. For a hundred common dishes they don't need recipe books. They know how ingredients perform together. The same goes for the application of heat. A recipe might say "cook on a medium heat for 5 minutes". A chef will just cook it till its right, using his senses to inform his memory.

Compare properly trained chefs to the recipe-following cooks who have no idea why a certain volume or weight on an ingredient is needed, or why 5 minutes instead of 4:30 seconds - just measure it all out and blindly follow the recipe. They may still produce a "good" product. But one is made by a chef and one by a cook.

Some beers are made by craftsmen, some beer, perhaps as good, is just made.

 

[mtb]

Do properly trained chefs measure out the quantities they need for a recipe? Not always, and for some dishes never.

Because;
a. Measuring takes time and chefs typically are under immense pressure, and
b. Errors in measuring out ingredients for food don't impact the final product nearly as much as in beer. Also, professional kitchens have pre-measured quantities of base ingredients (ie meats, vegetables).

Are you suggesting that any good brewer should be able to weigh out 5kg of pale malt without scales.. when the technology and time is available in generous quantities?

 

[Feldon]

Yes, in as far as the subtle differences between brewing with a BIAB system vs a HERMS system vs a RIMS system. The process is the same, the mechanics slightly different.

I still have to mill my grain, mash in, sparge, boil, add my hops, do my whirlpool. And the Grainfather will do none of this for me. To say you just have to press a couple of buttons and walk away is simply uninformed.


Sorry mate but that's a load of crap. My Grainfather does nothing more than hold the temperature to a consistent level. That's as automated as it goes. Everything else is a manual process.

The process might be the same, but the brewer is not the same. You've let a machine take command of important parts - eg. maintaining mash temperature. You also make no mention of your knowledge of the design of the system, What, for example, was that particular diameter/height ratio chosen for the Grainfather. Its important because optimal mash tun ratios are different to boil kettle ratios, and single vessel systems combine both. People who have built their own systems have had to wrestle with these issues, made decisions, make mistakes and learned. Do you know? Perhaps you don't care (and that's OK - I don't know why the engineers at Toyota chose the particular compression ratio for my Camry. But I don't pretend to be Stirling Moss). A craftsman cares about his equipment as much as his recipe and processes.

The point I'm making is that craftmanship in brewing, like anything else, is about what you as a person bring to it. It is in your attitude and your ethics, the sense of value you place in living your life on your terms (not living the life someone you don't know has programmed for you). As I said earlier its a sliding scale. To pursue craftmanship to its ultimate ends we would all be growing our own barley and capturing wild yeast. But I just think it is important the brewing process retains as much of its craft base as it once did when we brewed our beer after boiling our socks in the laundry copper.

 

[bwhouse]

Are you suggesting that any good brewer should be able to weigh out 5kg of pale malt without scales.. when the technology and time is available in generous quantities?

Maybe it is ok to use scales to measure the 5kg if you built the scales from scratch. Hey its not that hard, buy a few load sensors from ebay connect them to an adruino and then google some code.