Renegade
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You really think 90% of the business for many brew shops is in distilling equipment & ingredients ? Its the second time in this thread that this has been mentioned.
Excerpts From A Conversation With A Lbhs Owner
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You really think 90% of the business for many brew shops is in distilling equipment & ingredients ? Its the second time in this thread that this has been mentioned.
Trent
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Bad analogy?!? I was wondering if someone would pick that up :lol: but it was the best I could think of at the time. But at least the take away is a food shop, just as a home brew shop is a... um... beer making shop? I would say that you wouldnt get good advice at most home brew shops if you want to make great beer. thats what makes good HBS's so valuable. For most people all grain isn't worth the bother, it doesnt mean its crap advice, it is just their opinion. Again, 99% of his clientele would agree that mashing isnt worth the hassle, even if they were to try it for themselves. He obviously has home brewing supplies, so there is nothing wrong there, and he probably has great K+K advice, but doesnt know a thing about extract or AG. I wouldnt call it lack of pride, or not giving a toss - he just doesnt need to know the more detailed aspects of brewing, and therefore doesnt learn them - it isnt crap advice in his opinion. He probably thinks he is saving another person from the hassle of buying all this extra equipment on something that 99% of people would find isnt worth the hassle.
At the end of the day, we are a very small minority, and we shouldnt expect everybody else to be as passionate or pedantic as we are about beer making.
Or thats my crap advice, anyway.
All the best
Trent
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
I can understand it goes beyond the limits of some shops and the owners and/or staff but if you can see someone else is interested or excited then point them in a direction where they can find what they're after.
Another analogy - man walks into a book store or library which has limited stock and a limited budget, looking for some literature on the book of hours. Instead of looking at the man blankly or pretending he's an idiot, the librarian uses google, finds out what he's on about and says 'oh no we don't have that here, but you might have more success checking out the State Library of Victoria'.
The only reason I say this is the first time I went to a shop outside Kmart for brewing supplies, I was curious about how beer was made. I had no idea - all I did was open can, throw in BEII, warmed prebittered goop and stir in yeast.
I was prepared to spend around $100. I explained I was just making kits from k-mart but was interested in the process. The guy looked at me like I was a goldfish that had jumped out of the tank, suggested I could buy a couple of things to make my brews better and intimated that grain based brewing was such a pain in the arse that I wouldn't/shouldn't go to the effort just for 23 litres. I didn't ask that. I asked how it was done. Simple question from a curious customer met with a disparaging reply from a non caring retail staff member.
Don't bother mate. You'll need to buy a brewery
Anyway I ended up buying an airlock and a grommet for about $4.
My current LHBS on the other hand, sees between $40 and $120 leave my wallet every time I go in because no matter how many dumb questions I ask, they're happy to spend time answering and not making me feel like a twonk.
Another analogy - man walks into a book store or library which has limited stock and a limited budget, looking for some literature on the book of hours. Instead of looking at the man blankly or pretending he's an idiot, the librarian uses google, finds out what he's on about and says 'oh no we don't have that here, but you might have more success checking out the State Library of Victoria'.
The only reason I say this is the first time I went to a shop outside Kmart for brewing supplies, I was curious about how beer was made. I had no idea - all I did was open can, throw in BEII, warmed prebittered goop and stir in yeast.
I was prepared to spend around $100. I explained I was just making kits from k-mart but was interested in the process. The guy looked at me like I was a goldfish that had jumped out of the tank, suggested I could buy a couple of things to make my brews better and intimated that grain based brewing was such a pain in the arse that I wouldn't/shouldn't go to the effort just for 23 litres. I didn't ask that. I asked how it was done. Simple question from a curious customer met with a disparaging reply from a non caring retail staff member.
Don't bother mate. You'll need to buy a brewery
Anyway I ended up buying an airlock and a grommet for about $4.
My current LHBS on the other hand, sees between $40 and $120 leave my wallet every time I go in because no matter how many dumb questions I ask, they're happy to spend time answering and not making me feel like a twonk.
Manticle has hit the nail on the head, it really boils down to whether the owner has a genuine passion for the craft. I spent most of my working life in Australia dealing with retailers (I've been an Allens Sweets rep, a sales manager with Rothmans etc etc) and there's unanimous agreement within the noble guild of commercial travellers that whilst many people in small retail business are there because they are passionate about supplying a particular good or service and want to build a thriving and interesting business (e.g Young Ross) - the majority, sadly, are there because they have 'bought themselves a job' for one of two reasons:
They have been made redundant and have a payout
They are, (nearly always due to ego issues) totally bloody unemployable in any mainstream occupation
{{{{Off topic: Grumpy Rant. Go to any smaller shopping complex where they have a lot of small Mum and Dad businesses such as coffee shops, delis, little dress shops, beauty salons etc etc then walk round the back to their service and parking area and count the Lexus, Saab and BMWs. This isn't because the businesses are doing well, it's because having bought themselves a job they are now important people and deserve to lease the best car possible. The passionate business owners however are more likely to have a Kia parked out the back.}}}
Back on topic - you can tell the passionate retailers by their personal participation in the craft. BABBs for example has 2 retailers as members and they aren't there to drum up sales, they don't need to. One of them I didn't even realise was a business owner until a couple of meetings ago and conversations are all about styles and methods, and never ever about what's on special at the store.
They have been made redundant and have a payout
They are, (nearly always due to ego issues) totally bloody unemployable in any mainstream occupation
{{{{Off topic: Grumpy Rant. Go to any smaller shopping complex where they have a lot of small Mum and Dad businesses such as coffee shops, delis, little dress shops, beauty salons etc etc then walk round the back to their service and parking area and count the Lexus, Saab and BMWs. This isn't because the businesses are doing well, it's because having bought themselves a job they are now important people and deserve to lease the best car possible. The passionate business owners however are more likely to have a Kia parked out the back.}}}
Back on topic - you can tell the passionate retailers by their personal participation in the craft. BABBs for example has 2 retailers as members and they aren't there to drum up sales, they don't need to. One of them I didn't even realise was a business owner until a couple of meetings ago and conversations are all about styles and methods, and never ever about what's on special at the store.
haysie
homebrewing is the art of over analysing
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South East Melbourne.
A reference to 1% of homebrewers are all grainers? where did that come from? What a load of shite.
I would like nothing more than the conversation and knowledge, of a LHBS.
That wont happen until they educate themselves. i.e Brewcraft, Narre, Frankston, Brewcraft. < Slackass
Until then, G&G and CB get my nod and business. Brewers Den should be the be all and end all of the south eastern, unfortunantly their not.
A reference to 1% of homebrewers are all grainers? where did that come from? What a load of shite.
I would like nothing more than the conversation and knowledge, of a LHBS.
That wont happen until they educate themselves. i.e Brewcraft, Narre, Frankston, Brewcraft. < Slackass
Until then, G&G and CB get my nod and business. Brewers Den should be the be all and end all of the south eastern, unfortunantly their not.
Trent
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1% of home brewers are all grainers is a load of shite? IIRC, I said it was a guess, but realistically, go and spend a day at a local HBS and see just how many all grainers walk through the door compared to people that buy kits. Add on all the hundred/thousands that buy kits at supermarkets. Looking over AHB, around 3 years ago, I would have said that there were probably only about 250 AG brewers on the forum. Maybe 1% is a bit of a stretch, but it would be well less than 5%.
Expecting All HBS owners to be passionate about brewing and especially AG is just ludicrous and possibly even a touch arrogant. They are home brew supply shops, only some are home brew experts. And I maintain that 1% is a reasonable estimate on AG vs kit brewers.
Maybe wecould all open our own home brew shops, so that every HBS is staffed with passionate, educated staff.
Or that's my uneducated load of shite opinion.
T.
haysie
homebrewing is the art of over analysing
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Well goodonya Trent. Did your facts n figures make for better shopping eperiences`s? Or is that Forster and you are referring to the OP of South East Melbourne.
3 years and only 250 all grainers??? another "where did you get that figure from"?
Haysie, I would agree with Trent - from my 30 years involved in the hobby he is pretty much on the money.
It is a pity that you haven't seen fit to offer any facts to support your POV.
Dave
haysie
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Dave, pretty much on the money? a $ each way statement! What are your facts being a retailer? I dont think the thread was really interested in the robustness of the Newcastle brewing fraternity rather the non exsistence of South East Melb.
dr K
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Trent is so far off the mark...
1% is probably on the max side.
Pretty simple bit of research .
AHB is without a doubt the biggest HB forum in Australia, bulk buys, from a retailer, are big things, especially considering the price differential (for serious AG'ers). So add up the total number of grain bulk buys on this site over the last 12 months, assume that 80% of AG brewers do not participate in these, buy their grain in 4 kilo lots from the LHBS anyway.What have you got, 10 tonne in bulk buys maybe, using the 80% rule thats 50 tonne or about what, 12500 brews @$25 a kit and bits....$312500 pa ..turnover only. subsistence for a shop if even that , factor in that every Coles and every Woolworths and most small chains have Home Brew Kits taking up valuable shelf space (and use by dates) and these places have 50% minimum of market share (again conservative, there are very few if any other groups of retailers whose combined share would be even 20% of WollyColes).
So the grain component is $312 500, thus the total pie is 100 times that (at 1%) pull out WoolyColes and you have a max of 50 only just viable HB shops in Australia.
Yes know LHBS sell lots of other stuff as well and this increases turnover, but the bulk is, and has to be, basic ingredients, I need malt every time I brew, I don't need a new fermentor, or a new keg or mash-tun or boiler.
I reckon AG is under 1/2 % of HB in Australia.
K
1% is probably on the max side.
Pretty simple bit of research .
AHB is without a doubt the biggest HB forum in Australia, bulk buys, from a retailer, are big things, especially considering the price differential (for serious AG'ers). So add up the total number of grain bulk buys on this site over the last 12 months, assume that 80% of AG brewers do not participate in these, buy their grain in 4 kilo lots from the LHBS anyway.What have you got, 10 tonne in bulk buys maybe, using the 80% rule thats 50 tonne or about what, 12500 brews @$25 a kit and bits....$312500 pa ..turnover only. subsistence for a shop if even that , factor in that every Coles and every Woolworths and most small chains have Home Brew Kits taking up valuable shelf space (and use by dates) and these places have 50% minimum of market share (again conservative, there are very few if any other groups of retailers whose combined share would be even 20% of WollyColes).
So the grain component is $312 500, thus the total pie is 100 times that (at 1%) pull out WoolyColes and you have a max of 50 only just viable HB shops in Australia.
Yes know LHBS sell lots of other stuff as well and this increases turnover, but the bulk is, and has to be, basic ingredients, I need malt every time I brew, I don't need a new fermentor, or a new keg or mash-tun or boiler.
I reckon AG is under 1/2 % of HB in Australia.
K
leiothrix
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Slightly off topic - where to the Wollongong brewers shop? There's two shops that I know of, one at Albion Park and the other Woonona. Asking for sacks of grain, one told me that they don't sell pale malt and offered carapils instead, and the other had a price that would have been cheaper for me to freight the sack down from Ross in QLD.
Back on topic though - i don't know how someone can open a niche/speciality shop and know stuff all about what they're selling. How do they expect to stay in business if they don't know their own product? I can understand staff not caring about the business as it's not their money, but if you own it it is.
Back on topic though - i don't know how someone can open a niche/speciality shop and know stuff all about what they're selling. How do they expect to stay in business if they don't know their own product? I can understand staff not caring about the business as it's not their money, but if you own it it is.
haysie
homebrewing is the art of over analysing
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Do you run a homebrew shop Trent?
What you say
is eactly how G&G run there show, they are knowlegable enthusiastic and so they bloody should be, or otherwise you do what our great deputy prime minister recommends Walk with your Feet :lol:I'd like to draw a parallel here.
I used to manage and also own a music shop.
We would move Marshall amps and Fender strats down to beginners stuff.
Because we chose what beginners stuff we stocked in our store we were just as enthusiastic about that stuff as any other stock we had. It didn't matter whether it was made in China or elsewhere we would be enthusiastic in showing anybody how you could get the most out of a little $100.00 amp.
Cos we had chosen to stock it we were aware of what it could do and couldn't do. We sold quality at the beginners end and at the professional end. Here's the crunch...the staff were more obsessed with learning how to get the most out of our "kit and kilo's" than mucking about with the top end stuff. ( cos that's what they used personally and new inside out.)
We appreciated that if the customer walked away with value for money they would come back...and they did. They would move from "Samick" to "Ibanez" and then to "Gibson". They would be with us for years cos we were enthusiastic about the "kit and kilo" guitars we sold. If someone wanted us to service a "cheapie" we would put just as much effort in it as we would a top end guitar.
Best comment would be "I took the guitar to school and the teachers thought it played like a thousand dollar guitar"
This is the equivalent of a customer in a LHBS saying, "That kits and bits recipe and advice you gave me made the best beer I ever tasted."
That customer will buy whatever you recommend from that moment. All because you are interested in beer making at ALL levels and bother to keep up with whatever is happening.
It shouldn't matter whether the staff are into AG or not. They should know the product they sell and be able to get the most out of it.
In good music shops staff talk about the products most of the time because they are enthusiastic. That's what I would expect from any specialist store, including LHBS's.
Cheers
I used to manage and also own a music shop.
We would move Marshall amps and Fender strats down to beginners stuff.
Because we chose what beginners stuff we stocked in our store we were just as enthusiastic about that stuff as any other stock we had. It didn't matter whether it was made in China or elsewhere we would be enthusiastic in showing anybody how you could get the most out of a little $100.00 amp.
Cos we had chosen to stock it we were aware of what it could do and couldn't do. We sold quality at the beginners end and at the professional end. Here's the crunch...the staff were more obsessed with learning how to get the most out of our "kit and kilo's" than mucking about with the top end stuff. ( cos that's what they used personally and new inside out.)
We appreciated that if the customer walked away with value for money they would come back...and they did. They would move from "Samick" to "Ibanez" and then to "Gibson". They would be with us for years cos we were enthusiastic about the "kit and kilo" guitars we sold. If someone wanted us to service a "cheapie" we would put just as much effort in it as we would a top end guitar.
Best comment would be "I took the guitar to school and the teachers thought it played like a thousand dollar guitar"
This is the equivalent of a customer in a LHBS saying, "That kits and bits recipe and advice you gave me made the best beer I ever tasted."
That customer will buy whatever you recommend from that moment. All because you are interested in beer making at ALL levels and bother to keep up with whatever is happening.
It shouldn't matter whether the staff are into AG or not. They should know the product they sell and be able to get the most out of it.
In good music shops staff talk about the products most of the time because they are enthusiastic. That's what I would expect from any specialist store, including LHBS's.
Cheers
By some of the analogies being bandied around, every corner take-away should be able to offer 4 star dining on the off chance that someone walks in wanting a silver service meal. The takeaway down the road from me is great, they will never get a Chef's Hat - doesn't stop it being a great takeaway.
It takes a fairly large population base for it to be worth the investment in AG to pay off; you need enough customers to turn over the stock. In Newcastle, Australia's 6th biggest city, it's not really profitable, but over the last couple of years it's finally not costing me money to support the AG community
Look at the sponsors, 1 from Melbourne, 1 from Sydney, 2 from Brisbane (50% of the home brew made in Australia is made in QLD)
I have 3 ton of malt (60 varieties) and over 45 hops in stock, not because I get rich of it but because this is what I am passionate about.
MHB
It takes a fairly large population base for it to be worth the investment in AG to pay off; you need enough customers to turn over the stock. In Newcastle, Australia's 6th biggest city, it's not really profitable, but over the last couple of years it's finally not costing me money to support the AG community
Look at the sponsors, 1 from Melbourne, 1 from Sydney, 2 from Brisbane (50% of the home brew made in Australia is made in QLD)
I have 3 ton of malt (60 varieties) and over 45 hops in stock, not because I get rich of it but because this is what I am passionate about.
MHB
manticle
Standing up for the Aussie Bottler
The above analogy is almost identical to one made earlier and just as silly.
People are complaining about a home brew store offering bad advice, out of date produce, not caring about customers' (EVERY customers') wishes, not knowing the produce they sell and worse- advising people that anything they (the shop owner) don't know about is not worth the bother.
It is not even remotely close to walking into a fish and chip shop looking for profiteroles or a bresse pigeon stack with morelle mushroom glaze. That's just plain and simply stupid.
It's a home brew shop where one might expect homebrew products and advice. It doesn't say 'homebrew shop but only for people interested in kits that we sell'.
If they don't sell AG stuff fine but they shouldn't try and convince you that wanting to go AG (or extract or whatever) is a waste of time or sell you yeast that's 3 years old or not know the malt they have in stock or tell you you HAVE to have a tin of pre-bittered goop in order to make a pilsner.
People are complaining about a home brew store offering bad advice, out of date produce, not caring about customers' (EVERY customers') wishes, not knowing the produce they sell and worse- advising people that anything they (the shop owner) don't know about is not worth the bother.
It is not even remotely close to walking into a fish and chip shop looking for profiteroles or a bresse pigeon stack with morelle mushroom glaze. That's just plain and simply stupid.
It's a home brew shop where one might expect homebrew products and advice. It doesn't say 'homebrew shop but only for people interested in kits that we sell'.
If they don't sell AG stuff fine but they shouldn't try and convince you that wanting to go AG (or extract or whatever) is a waste of time or sell you yeast that's 3 years old or not know the malt they have in stock or tell you you HAVE to have a tin of pre-bittered goop in order to make a pilsner.
schooey
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For me, the answer lies here... We used to have 3 home brew shops in this city. One closed it's doors not long ago. I can only speak from limited experience, because I only walked into the place twice, and the experience wasn't that great, not like the OP's because I had very very little brewing experience but I still knew the guy was all about the sale, not about the beer.
So now we are left to two choices. When I walk into one shop, I get excellent advice and service from someone who is really passionate not only about beer, but about the science behind it, the art of perfecting it.... yatter yatter, I don't want to blow wind up anyone's arse.. his grain is well stored, his hops are vacuum sealed and refrigerated, a huge selection of liquid yeasts, pretty much everything. I go there as often as I get time to, if not to buy anything, just to chew the fat and learn a thing or two, not only from him, but from other customers. most of the times I'm there I 'll be there for an hour or longer, In that hour I reckon anything from 2 - 15 customers will walk through the door. I watch and listen some more. Crack my grain and let him sell kits and bits to the punters..... oh yeah... more often than not I never seem to have one of these people line up behind me to crack grain... never thought about it until now
At the other shop in town, he sells grains in round chinese containers in 250g batches. His hops are sitting out on the shelf where they have been for the last 2 years. yeah he is reasonably passionate about his beer, more so about his spirits I'd hazard a guess... and when I see customers walk into his shop, nearly all of them buy kits; I'm talking 99% of them, and nope, it;s not a quiet shop, I'm sure he's doing ok. I reckon if I asked him about the differences between conversion with a 1 degree temp difference in the Beta Amalyse phase his eyes would just glaze over... But it's not his game, and I can see that, I get it, and it's not his fault if that's not the market he wants to be in. I still see a loyal tribe of happy customers come and go from his shop. I reckon the figure of Kits and bits/Spirit Makers to AG brewers would be in the vicinity of 95:5 out of 100. Sometimes I think this AG thing not only makes people beer snobs, declaring anything commercial as 'megaswill', but it also inflates their self imposed importance level in the food chain...
At the end of the day, if you're not happy with the shop, don't go there. But it's not his fault he doesn't tailor to all your needs. Sure his morals may be questionable if he is happy to provide people with questionable info for a profit gain, but if we're going to headhunt every retailer that does that in this country there sure is gonna be a big vacuum at the end. Your options are open, just buy somewhere else, reduce the stress level nad have another beer... Life's too short
So now we are left to two choices. When I walk into one shop, I get excellent advice and service from someone who is really passionate not only about beer, but about the science behind it, the art of perfecting it.... yatter yatter, I don't want to blow wind up anyone's arse.. his grain is well stored, his hops are vacuum sealed and refrigerated, a huge selection of liquid yeasts, pretty much everything. I go there as often as I get time to, if not to buy anything, just to chew the fat and learn a thing or two, not only from him, but from other customers. most of the times I'm there I 'll be there for an hour or longer, In that hour I reckon anything from 2 - 15 customers will walk through the door. I watch and listen some more. Crack my grain and let him sell kits and bits to the punters..... oh yeah... more often than not I never seem to have one of these people line up behind me to crack grain... never thought about it until now
At the other shop in town, he sells grains in round chinese containers in 250g batches. His hops are sitting out on the shelf where they have been for the last 2 years. yeah he is reasonably passionate about his beer, more so about his spirits I'd hazard a guess... and when I see customers walk into his shop, nearly all of them buy kits; I'm talking 99% of them, and nope, it;s not a quiet shop, I'm sure he's doing ok. I reckon if I asked him about the differences between conversion with a 1 degree temp difference in the Beta Amalyse phase his eyes would just glaze over... But it's not his game, and I can see that, I get it, and it's not his fault if that's not the market he wants to be in. I still see a loyal tribe of happy customers come and go from his shop. I reckon the figure of Kits and bits/Spirit Makers to AG brewers would be in the vicinity of 95:5 out of 100. Sometimes I think this AG thing not only makes people beer snobs, declaring anything commercial as 'megaswill', but it also inflates their self imposed importance level in the food chain...
At the end of the day, if you're not happy with the shop, don't go there. But it's not his fault he doesn't tailor to all your needs. Sure his morals may be questionable if he is happy to provide people with questionable info for a profit gain, but if we're going to headhunt every retailer that does that in this country there sure is gonna be a big vacuum at the end. Your options are open, just buy somewhere else, reduce the stress level nad have another beer... Life's too short
bum
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As an entirely un-required update, I found a LHBS yesterday that seems somewhat better suited to my needs (despite being a Brewcraft rep). They keep their yeast in a fridge (well inside use by date) and sell non-teabag hops. Bit pricey but will do in brew related emergencies.
Even more heavily focussed towards the growing side of things than the original LHBS I mentioned. Who knew tomatoes were so popular down this neck of the woods?
Even more heavily focussed towards the growing side of things than the original LHBS I mentioned. Who knew tomatoes were so popular down this neck of the woods?
WarmBeer
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bum
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Don't know the name of the place but it is in Carrum Downs. On that part of Rutherford/Lathams rd where it is hard to say which it might be. On the freeway side of the roundabout. Can't miss it, really, just look for the words "grow" and "hydro". Can't vouch for the advice given there but at least I didn't have to explain what US-05 was like at the first LHBS.
