Efficiency drop on bigger beers

[Moad]

I brewed 2 beers yesterday and got very different results.

One was 60L of golden @ 1.045 OG. I knocked out 65 Litres at 1.044 so close enough.

Next up was 65L of IPA going for 1.064. I ended up with 66L at 1.056.

Process was exactly the same for both beers, the IPA had a thicker mash but I wouldn't have expected it to make THAT much of a difference (2.8L/KG vs 3 L/KG for the golden)

I'm still getting used to a new system and I use beer smith. Do I need to adjust expected efficiency based on OG target or does BeerSmith do this?

 

[Pogierob]

3v?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Same grain bills ?

 

[Fat Bastard]

Given that he's posted the golden ale was 1.045 and the IPA was supposed to be 1.064 I'd assume not.

Anecdotally I've found an efficiency reduction in bigger beers. I thought I had data to prove this, but when I looked, I found I had a nice graph of mash thickness v. grain absorbtion. Which does drop (from 1.1l/kg to 1l/kg) off as mash thickness increases from 4.1l/KG to 2.5l/kg.

It's probably something to do with that though. Sorry for the vague answer. I'm sure I have the right graph somewhere. I'll post it if I can find it.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Mmm....I seemed to get better overall %eff if I kept the the mash at about 3L\Kg regardless off the beer. Naturally I had a big enough tun to for the extra volume of big beers.

 

[Spiesy]

I BIAB and definitely get diminishing returns with high gravity brews. Particularly if I can't mash full volume due to brew pot restraints.

 

[Mr B]

What do you reckon is the beginning of diminishing returns?

 

[Moad]

3v 100lt vessels.

Will post grain bill tomorrow but I am thinking that the mash thickness definitely comes into play here.

 

[Fat Bastard]

Found it. X axis is grain bill, Y axis is efficency.

 

[Moad]

Interesting, correlates with what I'm seeing. Although with 12.5kg I still hit 85% on the golden. 17Kg on the black IPA and it was around 72 I think

 

[Fat Bastard]

Probably changes with the ratio of grainbed area & depth I'd imagine. My 3v system gets 20-23l in the fermenter depending on the beer. Your numbers would be different, but I reckon the slope would be similar.

 

[manticle]

Fairly well accepted that there is an efficiency drop with gravity increase/larger grain bill as far as I'm aware. Will see if I can find some text references as to why.

 

[Blind Dog]

Should of kept the BM

It's like Carrie but less forgiving


Mwwwwahhhahhah

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Generally the grain bed is thicker and less wort is sparged out with normal volumes.
I compensate for this by "over sparging" and then do an extended boil evaporation , normally two hours.
Big beers are worth the effort :icon_drool2:

 

[Spiesy]

I BIAB and definitely get diminishing returns with high gravity brews. Particularly if I can't mash full volume due to brew pot restraints.

I'd imagine somewhere in the vicinity of 1065+ OG beer.

 

[Spiesy]

Big beers are worth the effort :icon_drool2:

I'm a bit over big beers to be honest.

 

[Tahoose]

I'm a bit over the limit after big beers to be honest.

Sorry mate but that's how I read that.

 

[Alex.Tas]

Sorry for the off topic question,

Generally the grain bed is thicker and less wort is sparged out with normal volumes.
I compensate for this by "over sparging" and then do an extended boil evaporation , normally two hours.

I accidentally did this the other day, from what i've read post incident is that there wont be much caramelisation due to the very high moisture content during the elevated temps, but there will be some darkening.
So does this mean that basically, extended boils will mostly darken your beer and reduce volume?
Are there other significant effects of extended boils for most homebrewers?

 

[manticle]

Development of melanoidens.
I love long boils on big, rich beers. Wee heavy for example - no crystal, just a 3 hour boil.

 

[Weizguy]

Development of melanoidens.
I love long boils on big, rich beers. Wee heavy for example - no crystal, just a 3 hour boil.

Sounds like a beer that did well in the NSW comp this year. Stuster made a long-boil Wee Heavy. Gorgeous.

 

[Mardoo]

If you listen to the High Gravity series from Brew Strong you'll get some more info on efficiency drop at higher gravities. I don't remember the specifics off the top of my head, but it is a confirmed effect:

http://thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/Brew-Strong/search/high+gravity

A very interesting series and well worth a listen. It's my drivetime listening.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Sounds like a beer that did well in the NSW comp this year. Stuster made a long-boil Wee Heavy. Gorgeous.

Oh yeah, its the only way to get gravity and add delicious depth. Get the Stuster to post a recipe. :icon_drool2:
Spiesy , I dont believe you said you are over big beers ?
I intend on mastering them, last batch (barley wine 10.2%) has great results.
Nev

 

[Yob]

I had experienced this with +13ish kg mashes until today..

Didn't think it would make a difference and still not sure as there are other variables but..

Mash today was an hour at 63, we then went out for yum cha, set the hex to 78 and went out.. Hour and a half later got home and first runnings were the highest I've ever had.. 1.115

The other variable is the mill but I don't credit such a huge jump to that.

Previous, I'd expect about 1.085 or there abouts.

Effed if I know where the jump came from

 

[fletcher]

What do you reckon is the beginning of diminishing returns?

perhaps everyone's will be different but for my biab set up, i'll usually starting slowly dropping lower with efficiency after about 1.050-1.055. having said this, i haven't done exactly the same brew over and over, incrementally with a slightly higher OG expectation so...take that with a grain of salt.

 

[Mr B]

Interesting, thanks guys (or girls if you are enjoying an internet persona...)

 

[Trough Lolly]

Interesting, correlates with what I'm seeing. Although with 12.5kg I still hit 85% on the golden. 17Kg on the black IPA and it was around 72 I think

I suspect that the relatively lower efficiency gain in your black IPA may also be due to the grain bill. A kilo of dark malt weighs the same as a kilo of pale malt of course, but delivers much more colour yet less fermentables in the pre-boil wort...Just a hunch - and can be easily addressed in your recipe engine.

Cheers,
TL

 

[Moad]

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 78.72 l
Post Boil Volume: 70.72 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 65.00 l
Bottling Volume: 61.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.064 SG
Estimated Color: 35.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 57.4 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 81.6 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
15.03 kg Pilsner, Malt Craft Export (Joe White) ( Grain 1 86.4 %
2.07 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 2 11.9 %
0.30 kg Carafa Special III (Weyermann) (925.9 EB Grain 3 1.7 %
150.54 g Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 29.3 IBUs
150.54 g Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 5 25.1 IBUs
75.27 g Willamette [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 6 2.9 IBUs
150.00 g Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 7 0.0 IBUs
3.0 pkg Safale American (DCL/Fermentis #US-05) Yeast 8 -


Compared to

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 71.52 l
Post Boil Volume: 65.52 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 60.00 l   
Bottling Volume: 56.00 l
Estimated OG: 1.045 SG
Estimated Color: 18.9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 33.6 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 75.6 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
6.80 kg               Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC)         Grain         1        54.8 %        
2.50 kg               Munich, Light (Joe White) (17.7 EBC)     Grain         2        20.2 %        
2.47 kg               Rye Malt (Weyermann) (5.9 EBC)           Grain         3        19.9 %        
0.63 kg               Carabohemian (200.0 EBC)                 Grain         4        5.0 %         
30.14 g               Magnum [13.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min         Hop           5        17.3 IBUs     
70.00 g               Amarillo [8.70 %] - Boil 20.0 min        Hop           6        16.3 IBUs     
90.00 g               Amarillo [8.70 %] - Boil 0.0 min         Hop           7        0.0 IBUs      
3.0 pkg               Safale American  (DCL/Fermentis #US-05)  Yeast         8        -

 

[Moad]

Ignore the eff. set in these recipes.

 

[fraser_john]

I batch sparge, for higher OG beers, I split the sparge water up into multiple batches. For a 1040-1050 beers, a single batch, 1050-70 two sparges and higher three. Gets me a consistent 80-82% efficiency.

Just need to make sure that sparge water is properly treated with salts (no carbonates) and acid if needed.

 

[Moad]

as in recirc first sparge?