Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[felon]

I'm looking for the materials but I have problems fimding the SS pipe. The most similar is a 12mmx11mm (internal) but it's AISI304 and NOT 316. As far as I know this is not good for this use.
The alternatice could be copper but I was told that it's not as good as SS since is more difficoult to clean (I can't use caustic soda) and can get oxidized.


CD

304 stainless is fine for food contact. If you fly sparge you can run the water from your HLT through the coil and this will clean it. Caustic cleaners are fine to use on it.

 

[Fat Bastard]

HX in the HLT?

I'm currently building a small 36 litre 3v system as a precursor to building a big 100 litre system to get a handle on the various vagaries of both 3v and HERMS brewing.

I want to use a Gryphon HX in the HLT, a 20 litre/2400w urn, courtesy of Woolbrew. I understand that this won't ramp as quickly as a smaller vessel, due to the larger thermal mass being heated by the element, but it should be on a par with my current system, with that added bonus of no chance of scorched elements etc.

I can think of a couple of advantages of doing it this way, one being the HLT will be close to sparge temp by the time I've raised the mash to MO temps and not needing another element to run the HX (on top of the HLT and electric kettle).

Can anyone think of any reason not to do it this way, apart from the slower ramp time?

Cheers,

FB

 

[Wolfy]

Can anyone think of any reason not to do it this way, apart from the slower ramp time?

Slow response time, inefficient and your sparge temperature is determined by the heat exchange which is not ideal.
If you have a Gryphon coil, why not put it in an $8 kettle and have none of the 'issues' of using the HTL for HX-control?
(I'm not sure why you'd run the HLT and an electric kettle at the same time - unless the kettle was the HX-vessel).

 

[Fat Bastard]

I'm concerned about running 2 2400w elements on a 10A circuit in my new place. I suppose I could heat the HLT prior to firing up the HX for the mash, then let it get to temp while running the mash off, but ideally I would like to be able to have everything happening simultaneously.

The plan is to run the HX dead centre of the urn and as close as possible to the element, which is probably the best place for it. How far ahead of the wort temp do you suppose the water in the HLT/HX would run? Obviously if it's 95 degrees and I want to sparge at 75, waiting around for it to cool down would be too much of a pain.

 

[Wolfy]

I'm concerned about running 2 2400w elements on a 10A circuit in my new place. I suppose I could heat the HLT prior to firing up the HX for the mash, then let it get to temp while running the mash off, but ideally I would like to be able to have everything happening simultaneously.

Run an extension cord from another circuit to power the HEX.

 

[brettprevans]

I'm concerned about running 2 2400w elements on a 10A circuit in my new place. I suppose I could heat the HLT prior to firing up the HX for the mash, then let it get to temp while running the mash off, but ideally I would like to be able to have everything happening simultaneously.

The plan is to run the HX dead centre of the urn and as close as possible to the element, which is probably the best place for it. How far ahead of the wort temp do you suppose the water in the HLT/HX would run? Obviously if it's 95 degrees and I want to sparge at 75, waiting around for it to cool down would be too much of a pain.

No need to worry. Ur circuit board will trip if u run them at the same time. 10A + 10A wired in series (ie off same circuit) =20A. Normal circuit is 10A.

Wolfy's solution is the way to go.

 

[Fat Bastard]

Little bit of background info... I'm moving myself, the missus, and my brewing into a house from a 2 bed flat with everything on one circuit, so I'm still thinking in that mindset!

So, after having a squizz at the new place, it looks like I have at least 2 separate 10A circuits (house and granny flat/garage), and possibly one of 15 or 20amp (or at least I'm hoping so, it's been running a welder) that is down under the house. Initially I'll be stuck brewing outside in the courtyard between the garage and house, so running on 2 circuits is entirely feasible.

I have an Aldi urn that is claimed to be 8.8 litres, but holds 7 and has a 2000w element. I think I'll use that for the time being as:

A ) I've already got it
and
B ) it's shiny stainless and looks the part, unlike a $9 kettle.

A package of stainless fittings and bits turned up today, so one way or another, this is happening! Just waiting on the Beerbelly false bottom and wort return (which may, ahem, take some time)

Need to re-jig the controller too, so I can run the HX and HLT from the same box. Eventually I want the controller to run a larger, automated system, so this smaller system will be the proving ground for that.

Cheers,

FB

 

[QldKev]

Have a look at the fuse board, it should tell you a bit.

My house has 2 x 20amp circuit breakers for power points alone. The GPO is still rated at 10amp, but it means with a couple of extension cords I can find a lot of power. Also depending on the house a lot are wired in 2 sides. 1 of the 20amps feeds our carport and bedrooms, and the other feeds the kitchen and lounge.

With the granny flat you may have a separate power board.

You may have a lot more power available than you realize.

QldKev

 

[Fat Bastard]

Kev,

it looks like this may be the case. As the house is a 1950's owner/builder jobbie, we're going to get it rewired for peace of mind anyway, so I'll ask the lecco if it's feasible to have some uprated circuits and outlets in strategic points where I might be wanting to brew/weld in future.

I fitted the Gryphon HX to the Aldi urn over the weekend, and it's like it's made for it. Put a couple of holes through the lid to take some compression fittings and it holds the bottom of the coil 10mm off the concealed element. I wish everything was so easy!

I'll probably test it this weekend. Should I have the urn filled right up, or only run enough water to cover the coiled part of the HX? and this might be an obvious question, which direction should I run it? Cold to the top of the coil or cold to the bottom?

Cheers,

FB.

 

[QldKev]

Kev,

it looks like this may be the case. As the house is a 1950's owner/builder jobbie, we're going to get it rewired for peace of mind anyway, so I'll ask the lecco if it's feasible to have some uprated circuits and outlets in strategic points where I might be wanting to brew/weld in future.

I fitted the Gryphon HX to the Aldi urn over the weekend, and it's like it's made for it. Put a couple of holes through the lid to take some compression fittings and it holds the bottom of the coil 10mm off the concealed element. I wish everything was so easy!

I'll probably test it this weekend. Should I have the urn filled right up, or only run enough water to cover the coiled part of the HX? and this might be an obvious question, which direction should I run it? Cold to the top of the coil or cold to the bottom?

Cheers,

FB.

Cold to the bottom, good luck with the sparky.

QldKev

 

[mxd]

Should I have the urn filled right up, or only run enough water to cover the coiled part of the HX?

If you just cover the coil you should get quicker ramp times, element only needs to heat 2 ltrs of water not 7 ltrs.

I don't know if it matters which way the wort flows ??

 

[altstart]

Hi people
I have been useing a herms for quite a while now and my normal practise is to pump PBW through the system and flush it out with hot water after the PBW, after use. To store the system untill needed for the next brew I simply put the outlet hose on the inlet. I have noticed that I need to flush the system prior to useing it on brew day. Given that I will be flushing the system on brew day can I store it with the PBW sealed inside the system or is this prolonged exposure to PBW going to effect the S/S coil, silicon food grade hoses or my March pump.

Cheers Altstart B)

 

[hsb]

I would guess PBW would damage the silicon hoses if left for a long period of time.
AFAIK you shouldn't store S/S filled with PBW (or other cleaning agents) for extended periods?

Overnight would be OK but between brews, I would rinse the system.

These are the PBW instructions:

CIRCULATION CLEANING: Use 1 to 3 ounces per gallon depending on soil load.
Heat to 130 to 180 F for 30 minutes.

CARBON REMOVAL: Use 6 to 8 ounces per gallon of water. Heat to 140 F for 4 hours or allow to soak cold overnight.

 

[dubbadan]

I recently got a big pot & burner in order to start doing double batches. I now have an electric keggle thats not being used and I am wondering if its worthwhile using in a HERMS setup. I had an idea this evening and did a sketch:

The solenoids would allow recirculation of wort during mashing, then after mash out would use the HE water to sparge. I'm aiming to eventually have it set up so I can chuck in the strike water and grain and come back to fire up the burner under the kettle, partly to save time on brew day, partly for the fun of making it work. I also would like to use what I have without buying more equipment if possible. Any advice/suggestions would be welcome, particularly on what kind of solenoids are good for this purpose and where I could get them.

 

[squirt in the turns]

I recently got a big pot & burner in order to start doing double batches. I now have an electric keggle thats not being used and I am wondering if its worthwhile using in a HERMS setup. I had an idea this evening and did a sketch:
View attachment 58163
The solenoids would allow recirculation of wort during mashing, then after mash out would use the HE water to sparge. I'm aiming to eventually have it set up so I can chuck in the strike water and grain and come back to fire up the burner under the kettle, partly to save time on brew day, partly for the fun of making it work. I also would like to use what I have without buying more equipment if possible. Any advice/suggestions would be welcome, particularly on what kind of solenoids are good for this purpose and where I could get them.

My 2c:
You'll want the pump after the mash tun (between the MT outlet and the HX). The setup in your sketch won't be capable of delivering wort from the MT outlet to the HX. The pump really needs to be at the lowest point in the system, especially if it's a non-self-priming pump like a March pump.

Why do you want to use solenoids? If you're not looking to spend a lot more, just use plain old manual ball valves. They'll be more reliable and the system will be a hell of a lot easier to set up. Get some camlock fittings or quick disconnects for changing over the hoses instead of trying to plumb in 3-way solenoid operated valves.

 

[dubbadan]

My 2c:
You'll want the pump after the mash tun (between the MT outlet and the HX). The setup in your sketch won't be capable of delivering wort from the MT outlet to the HX. The pump really needs to be at the lowest point in the system, especially if it's a non-self-priming pump like a March pump.

Yeah of course. I was tired and not thinking straight.

Why do you want to use solenoids?

It's in the text in my original post...

 

[dubbadan]

The solenoids would allow recirculation of wort during mashing, then after mash out would use the HE water to sparge. I'm aiming to eventually have it set up so I can chuck in the strike water and grain and come back to fire up the burner under the kettle, partly to save time on brew day, partly for the fun of making it work.

Presuming the pump is in the right place, would a PID control all this?

I also would like to use what I have without buying more equipment if possible

Except for a couple of 3-way solenoid valves, a pump and various other fittings and hoses... :huh:

 

[squirt in the turns]

Presuming the pump is in the right place, would a PID control all this?

Yep, a PID using a solid-state relay (with heatsink - very important!) to switch the HX/HLT element on and off. There's heaps of info in this thread and all over this forum and elsewhere about this stuff. Put the temperature probe inline at the outlet of the HX (which should be the hottest part of the system).

I understand your desire to combine the HX and one of your HLTs, but there is a trend towards using a smaller dedicated vessel as the HX. Some advantages of this are:

• Smaller volume of liquid takes less time to heat up, making temperature steps faster
• With the HX coil in the HLT, your sparge water is locked at the same temperature as your last rest. This may or may not be a problem, but with a dedicated HX it's not even a consideration
• More bling (hopefully stainless) in your brewery

 

[dubbadan]

Yep, a PID using a solid-state relay (with heatsink - very important!) to switch the HX/HLT element on and off. There's heaps of info in this thread and all over this forum and elsewhere about this stuff. Put the temperature probe inline at the outlet of the HX (which should be the hottest part of the system).

I understand your desire to combine the HX and one of your HLTs, but there is a trend towards using a smaller dedicated vessel as the HX. Some advantages of this are:

• Smaller volume of liquid takes less time to heat up, making temperature steps faster
• With the HX coil in the HLT, your sparge water is locked at the same temperature as your last rest. This may or may not be a problem, but with a dedicated HX it's not even a consideration
• More bling (hopefully stainless) in your brewery

I'm about 1/2 way through reading this thread after a week or so of scanning during work breaks (!) but there's not much so far about using a PID to trigger solenoids. I probably will go with a smaller HE.

 

[squirt in the turns]

I'm about 1/2 way through reading this thread after a week or so of scanning during work breaks (!) but there's not much so far about using a PID to trigger solenoids. I probably will go with a smaller HE.

Ok, apologies if I've misunderstood, but I think I see what you think you're trying to achieve with the solenoid valves, which is to control the heat of the MT by metering or switching on and off the flow? I'm not aware of any recirculating systems that operate in this way. You want the flow to remain constant and steady so that the grain bed forms a filter (as when sparging) giving you nice clear wort. The PID is used to switch the heating element in the HX as required to maintain or raise the temperature of the mash, measuring the temperature of the wort as it leaves the HX.

You only need the solenoids (or valves of any kind) to operate at the beginning and end of the mash when you're diverting liquid to different places.

You can control the solenoids using some kind of all in one electronic system. I believe there are people out there doing very cool stuff like this with BCS and Arduino based systems, which can also be programmed to act as a PID. However, this is way more time consuming (and probably expensive) to build than a simple PID system with hoses and valves that you manually operate as required.