Dedicated Herms Guide, Problems And Solution Thread

[jackson]

are you crushing your own grain if so check your mill gap. I had similar issues until I gapped my mill to 1 mm

 

[hsb]

All my grain is store crushed, primarily from Craftbrewer. I think the problem is mine, but if I crushed it myself I'd definitely be looking at that - thanks.
I don't know what CB crush at, but I'd guess it's in the zone for no-problems.
I think my False bottom setup is the problem, good job I mullered my False bottom!

 

[MaltyHops]

I've just had to abandon a Stout due to my false bottom (again) completely inverting.
...

Maybe secure a couple of short lengths of 1/2inch copper tubing on the under
side of the FB to give the FB some support? Could get some s/s self-tapping
screws and screw into the tubes with the FB in between - s/s tubes would be
even better to avoid galvanic corrosion.

 

[DWC]

I'm in the process of finishing my herms at the moment, but I'm
not sure how to go about the wort return into the MLT. Could everyone
post pics of theirs for some inspiration please.
Cheers

Dave

 

[razz]

I'm in the process of finishing my herms at the moment, but I'm
not sure how to go about the wort return into the MLT. Could everyone
post pics of theirs for some inspiration please.
Cheers

Dave

This is obviously the inside Dave, outside is just a through fitting for the return.

 

[Screwtop]

I'm in the process of finishing my herms at the moment, but I'm
not sure how to go about the wort return into the MLT. Could everyone
post pics of theirs for some inspiration please.
Cheers

Dave

Liked the Blichmann Autosparger and wanted something similar. I fly/continuous sparge via pump and HE to the MLT while draining (gravity) to the kettle. Rate is very slow so did away with the floatvalve, just use a length of silicon hose and a fishing net float, simple as and works a treat. Hope this provides some inspiration.

Screwy

 

[fraser_john]

Liked the Blichmann Autosparger and wanted something similar. I fly/continuous sparge via pump and HE to the MLT while draining (gravity) to the kettle. Rate is very slow so did away with the floatvalve, just use a length of silicon hose and a fishing net float, simple as and works a treat. Hope this provides some inspiration.

Screwy

Nice one there Screwy, following the KISS principle, however why I used to fly sparge always found it difficult to properly balance in/out flow correctly, one was always more than the other, with the float valve, it solves that problem.

Be interested to see if someone as built a full alternative to the Blichmann model.

maybe based on:

 

[raven19]

Mod Edit - Moved this 'Airlocked' thread so easier to find for brewers future reference, moved it to 'Gear and Equipment' section of the forums.

 

[sponge]

Hey all,

Just been having a read through this thread and getting far too many ideas for my likings...

One thing I have noticed is that most of you use PID controllers, but there are some of you that still use the old faithful STC1000 (or similar)

Is there any advantage having a PID over an STC? From what I can picture, theyre both essentially switching an element on/off to maintain a temperature setpoint

Granted that the PID controllers allow for step times and everything to be added and controlled, but if this is just done using an external timer, are there any other advantages of the PID route?


Sponge

 

[hsb]

I use a BCS-460 which emulates a PID - the basic premise is that a PID offers (far) more smarts in temperature control. it will use an algorithm to hit your setpoint but not exceed it, as you can see here quite clearly

If you use a simple STC1000, you will find you overshoot/undershoot setpoints as you get lag from thermal masses heating/cooling. There are also no smarts going on to map the HEX liquid temperature changes to your desired temperature. PID are fairly cheap and worth the hassle if you are going to the trouble of recirculating to achieve precise temperature control.

Wikpedia has a much more eloquent description of what a PID does
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller

 

[sponge]

Yea I do a fair bit of work with the old PID's at work but was thinking that the PIDs would still struggle to maintain the correct temperature due to the thermal mass of the water and whatnot.

I will most probably go down the PID road as as you say, you will end up with a greater level of control in the system, but just thought I'd ask the question anyways.

The one other question I have is regarding the temperature probe used to monitor the wort temperature coming out of the HERMS coil.

I am looking at placing a tap at the end of the HERMS coil, with a tee piece after that and attaching the probe to the horiztonal length of the tee piece, with the wort exiting the perpendicular length.

From what I have read, most people use the 1/4" NPT PT100 probes, but wouldn't the length of the probe end up reaching the ball valve in the tap, thus making it unable to be closed?

I am more than happy to be proven wrong, and just wondering what people with taps are doing regarding mounting the probe.


Cheers,

Sponge


EDIT: now that I think about it, I'd be using a 1/2" NPT tee piece with a 1/2" to 1/4" reducer which would probably add enough length to the start of the probe to not be a problem. Either way, any feedback would be greatly appreciated

 

[NickB]

I have no issues using a TempMate to control HERMS temperature. I have it set to .5C and I don't seem to have any issues with overshoot at all. Will be changing out to an STC-1000 shortly as I have just acquired some.

Cheers

 

[hsb]

Sorry, didn't mean to teach you to suck eggs there - PIDs control the temperature of the HEX liquid based on the probe reading by switching on/off rapidly. This you know. If you look at a graph, you see that they do this very well by 'learning' their environment to round the curve off as you approach the setpoint. I never overshoot with one, someone else may be able to express that better but they are definitely what you need better at controlling temperature.

Why do you need a Ball Valve at the HEX out? Why would you need to close it?

I have a T and Probe, exactly as you describe but there is enough room with a 1/4 > 1/2" HEX nipple there as well in which for the probe to face directly towards the HEX and flow to go past probe and out perpendicular route. Basically just chain fittings together if you don't have room to make room?
I have the probe through a compression fitting as well, so it is directly in the liquid flow. (but not that exact model of probe)

Anyone else have the 1/4" NPT PT100 probe as per sponge's post to show their setup?

 

[sponge]

Thanks for the replies fellas.

As you say the PID would limit/eliminate the overshoot that an STC/similar might employ. I was just thinking that with the decent amount of water used to heat the HE, the change in water temperature over time would be quite minimal, but then again, by the time the STC reads the correct wort out temp, the surrounding water would still bring the wort temperature up higher than what was calculated.

As per most things brewing, it'll come down to knowing your own set up and how to minimise these factors with the equipment you have.

And with the probe placement, I guess the probe may be short enough to fit onto the perpendicular thread using a reducer without needing too much extra equipment. I thought about using a compression fitting/thermowell instead, but think I'll just end up using PT100's if they fit alright.

Cheers for the feedback


Sponge

 

[raven19]

Sponge - Best to add your valve at the outlet side of your pump to throttle your flow.

Here is my Probe setup with pics in my build thread if interested. RIMS yes, but theory is pretty much the same. No issues with overshooting / thermal mass, etc either.

Some more info at the start of that topic on overshooting, PID's etc too.

Good luck with the build.

Edit - spelling

 

[sponge]

Thanks for all the feedback.

So hopefully I'm getting towards the ordering end of things. Just thought I'd express my thoughts outloud so I can see if I'm on the right track or not...

This would be for a 3V system with a seperate small pot for the HERMS coil.

Ill hopefully be starting everything from scratch (new kegs with taps mounted on the bottom of the keg for MT and HLT and front mounted with diptube for kettle) but in terms of main hardware (exluding PID side of things) my shopping list is....

4 x taps (3 vessels and one for the liquid OUT side of the pump)
2 x compression fittings for SS HERMS coil
1 x SS HERMS coil (or Cu, but will probably end up going SS)
6 x F type QD's for taps on all three vessels, the liquid OUT side of the pump and the two entry/exit points for the HERMS coil
1 x A type QD for liquid IN to the pump
6 x B type QD's for various bits of 1/2" ID silicon hosing
1 x 1/2" tee piece for probe for wort out of the coil
2 x elements for HLT and HERMS pot (might either use my gas burner or over the side element for the kettle that I have for HLT/Kettle atm)
1 x march pump

Is this sounding about right for everything excluding PID controllers etc?

Now to shield myself from being thrown out by the CFO when I let her know...


Sponge

 

[mxd]

And with the probe placement, I guess the probe may be short enough to fit onto the perpendicular thread using a reducer without needing too much extra equipment. I thought about using a compression fitting/thermowell instead, but think I'll just end up using PT100's if they fit alright.

I think my probe placement is similar to what your describing, photo's below

https://plus.google.com/u/0/photos/11425105...062629109993233

 

[sponge]

Yea not too sure where I got this idea that I needed valves on the in and out of the HERMS coil... Pretty sure I might have seen it on the electric brewery website or something?

Either way, that idea has been scrapped so it should be sha-weet to fit the probe in without having to worry about it preventing a tap from closing.

Now to play the savings game and look into a HERMS coil...



Sponge

 

[Crusty]

Sorry, didn't mean to teach you to suck eggs there - PIDs control the temperature of the HEX liquid based on the probe reading by switching on/off rapidly. This you know. If you look at a graph, you see that they do this very well by 'learning' their environment to round the curve off as you approach the setpoint. I never overshoot with one, someone else may be able to express that better but they are definitely what you need better at controlling temperature.

Why do you need a Ball Valve at the HEX out? Why would you need to close it?

I have a T and Probe, exactly as you describe but there is enough room with a 1/4 > 1/2" HEX nipple there as well in which for the probe to face directly towards the HEX and flow to go past probe and out perpendicular route. Basically just chain fittings together if you don't have room to make room?
I have the probe through a compression fitting as well, so it is directly in the liquid flow. (but not that exact model of probe)

Anyone else have the 1/4" NPT PT100 probe as per sponge's post to show their setup?

I have mine screwed into a 1/2 > 1/4" reducing bush bsp. The pt100 is 1/4" npt. Mine is measuring the exit of my Rims tube which stands vertical.

 

[sponge]

Hey all,

Quick question. Ive had a little search but couldn't find anything...

Is it possible to use the 3 conductor PT100 probes with an STC1000?

I'm thinking that due to the thermal mass of water and how slowly the temperature within the HERMS unit will change, I was going to try setting up my HERMS just using an STC1000 since I have one spare one sitting around at the moment.

Since the only available 1/2" SS probes I've been able to find are the short ones on the auberins site (http://www.auberins.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=20_15&products_id=249), as most of the sponsors seem to be sold out of the longer-probed 2 conductor ones, I just thought I'd check to see if the short auberins probes would work with the STC1000.

Or if anyone knows of a decent 1/2" SS probe suitable for the STC just let me know. I wouldn't mind getting this all sorted out fairly soon...

Cheers,

Sponge





EDIT: Ross may have beaten me to it and saved the day.